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Thread: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I doubt they're hopping a convoy to Hawaii

    But, yes, it does suck that only one state is seriously fighting this on their own - all other states need to hop on board. They will, though - they will once the problem actually migrates and brings the drama with them.
    Sadly, I personally think that in 25 years this AZ action could accelerate an event that might be inevitable; the breakup of the country. Before thinking I went off the deep-end, think about the logical next steps here:

    -a single state passes laws strongly affirming the federal ones, forcing illegals to leave the state for more "alien-friendly" ones, like CA and NY

    - as other, more conservative states continue to pass laws like AZ, there will be mass illegal movements into regions of the country (northeast, wst coast, south florida) that are illegal sanctuaries

    - the costs/burdens on the sanctuary areas will eventually become so overwhelming, that they will become hopelessly bankrupt, forcing the mass exodus of legal citizens to the conservative states, a process already underway due to the differential income taxes between the "red" and "blue" states

    - the sanctuary areas will collapse due to the unsustainable social welfare levels provided to the illegals, and these areas will closely resemble non-functional, ungovernable African and Latin american banana republics.

    Given the mass import of both illegal and legal hispanics into the US, this breakup would have taken say, 50 years - but the tragedy of the AZ decision - one I personally applaud - has only moved up the timetable by several decades.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by rogerredy View Post
    Sadly, I personally think that in 25 years this AZ action could accelerate an event that might be inevitable; the breakup of the country. Before thinking I went off the deep-end, think about the logical next steps here:

    -a single state passes laws strongly affirming the federal ones, forcing illegals to leave the state for more "alien-friendly" ones, like CA and NY

    - as other, more conservative states continue to pass laws like AZ, there will be mass illegal movements into regions of the country (northeast, wst coast, south florida) that are illegal sanctuaries

    - the costs/burdens on the sanctuary areas will eventually become so overwhelming, that they will become hopelessly bankrupt, forcing the mass exodus of legal citizens to the conservative states, a process already underway due to the differential income taxes between the "red" and "blue" states

    - the sanctuary areas will collapse due to the unsustainable social welfare levels provided to the illegals, and these areas will closely resemble non-functional, ungovernable African and Latin american banana republics.

    Given the mass import of both illegal and legal hispanics into the US, this breakup would have taken say, 50 years - but the tragedy of the AZ decision - one I personally applaud - has only moved up the timetable by several decades.
    LOL....People are going to leave California for places like Idaho and Kansas?
    THAT's a good one.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by rogerredy View Post
    Sure, in Article 1, Section 8, where Congress is charged with and responsible to establish uniform rules of naturalization. This enumeration was necessary to avoid the “several states” from enacting different laws affecting immigration and thus a uniform standard was and is necessary for the nation.
    Naturalization only pertains to the aliens in the US acquiring citizenship, not residency. I want the part that enumerates authority over immigration and residency, not citizenship.

    Further, Constitutional scholars argue that enforcement of uniform immigration rules are covered under Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution which in part holds the Federal Government responsible to protect the states …”against invasion and domestic violence” upon application of the Legislature (Congress) or the Executive (President) when the Legislature cannot be convened.
    Obviously "Invasion" in this context refers to military invasion, not immigration.

    Do you take such a liberal stance on the general welfare clause as well?

    Most Constitutional scholars interpret these sections of the Constitution as placing the responsibility for making the law and enforcing that law, on the Federal Government.
    Actually, two of the ultimate Constitutional scholars -Madison and Jefferson- clearly stated, under no uncertain terms, the exact opposite during the Aliens and sedition act debates.

    Did you even bother to look up the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798 yet?

    Also, Federal authority over residency and immigration didn't occur until after a bit of judicial activism of the 1870's. The Supreme court usurped the power from Californian in 1875 using similar liberal reasoning as what you've used here.

    Again, this is all common knowledge to those who actually know the history of immigration in this country.

    Which, sadly, is not too many of us.
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    LOL....People are going to leave California for places like Idaho and Kansas? THAT's a good one.
    I'm assuming you're joking:

    The Business Relocation Coach: California's Hostile Business Climate: 100 'Moving-Out-of-State' Events (See newer list)

    "There is a disproportionate number of listings of companies moving to northern Idaho and the Spokane area. This is primarily because the Spokane Spokesman-Review has done a superior job of covering companies moving into the region; hence, the moves are easier to find online."

    Tax refugees staging escape from New York - NYPOST.com

    Tax refugees staging escape from New York

    "New Yorkers are fleeing the state and city in alarming numbers -- and costing a fortune in lost tax dollars, a new study shows.
    More than 1.5 million state residents left for other parts of the United States from 2000 to 2008, according to the report from the Empire Center for New York State Policy. It was the biggest out-of-state migration in the country."

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Arizona isn't "seriously fighting this on their own". Arizona's law is nothing other than a poorly written feel-good POS that is intended to rile up people looking for a scapegoat. It does nothing to actually address the real immigration problem.

    Yes, we need immigration reform, but this type of law is the completely wrong way to go about it.
    In what way is asking people that have been stopped for other criminal activity for their proof of residency completely wrong? And what would be "completely right?" Face it DD...ya got nothing. You bitch, whine, and moan because Arizona has bothered to enact state legislation to actually combat a problem...but when it comes to actual enforcment at a federal level you are a blank slate.

    The INS has less requirments when it comes to enforcing the law then does the Arizona law. The INS can act on random anonymous tips...can pull into fields or job sites...no probable cause...no nothing. And if they actually DO...what then will be the cry?

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    LOL....People are going to leave California for places like Idaho and Kansas?
    THAT's a good one.
    People already ARE leaving California...your taxpayers are. They have been leaving since the 80's and your population has been filled by illegals that LOVE California for the 'freesources'. And you guys laugh and laugh and laugh...meanwhile your cities are tunring into the same kind of toilet mexico is and your state is 50-60 billion in debt and on the verge of bantruptcy.

    Oh LOLOLOLOL...

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by rogerredy View Post
    Sadly, I personally think that in 25 years this AZ action could accelerate an event that might be inevitable; the breakup of the country. Before thinking I went off the deep-end, think about the logical next steps here:

    -a single state passes laws strongly affirming the federal ones, forcing illegals to leave the state for more "alien-friendly" ones, like CA and NY

    - as other, more conservative states continue to pass laws like AZ, there will be mass illegal movements into regions of the country (northeast, wst coast, south florida) that are illegal sanctuaries

    - the costs/burdens on the sanctuary areas will eventually become so overwhelming, that they will become hopelessly bankrupt, forcing the mass exodus of legal citizens to the conservative states, a process already underway due to the differential income taxes between the "red" and "blue" states

    - the sanctuary areas will collapse due to the unsustainable social welfare levels provided to the illegals, and these areas will closely resemble non-functional, ungovernable African and Latin american banana republics.

    Given the mass import of both illegal and legal hispanics into the US, this breakup would have taken say, 50 years - but the tragedy of the AZ decision - one I personally applaud - has only moved up the timetable by several decades.
    Accelerate the breakup of the country? I fail to see how.

    Look - if people WANT to continue to have mass problems due to illegal immigrants then they can open their arms all they want and THEN find out what Arizona has been dealing with this entire time.

    It has not been a pretty picture for Arizona, obviously.

    but this country's been through far worse than the mere implementation of some laws.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Naturalization only pertains to the aliens in the US acquiring citizenship, not residency. I want the part that enumerates authority over immigration and residency, not citizenship.
    Now I KNOW you are grasping at straws...how can a person become a citizen, if they are physically not in the country? Or are you referring to some mythical scenario where we grant citizenship to people living in France? You have to be HERE to become a citizen...

    Obviously "Invasion" in this context refers to military invasion, not immigration.
    It refers to an invasion of any kind...

    Do you take such a liberal stance on the general welfare clause as well?
    Should we discuss the price of tea in china as well? Stick to the thread topic, please...perhaps they should make ME the moderator, since it seems I'm the only one who's following the rules.

    Actually, two of the ultimate Constitutional scholars -Madison and Jefferson- clearly stated, under no uncertain terms, the exact opposite during the Aliens and sedition act debates. Did you even bother to look up the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798 yet?
    And the K-resolutions were not accepted, so what's the point? And Jefferson also said slavery was legal, perhaps we should accept all and every thing he wrote as gospel? I think not...

    Again, this is all common knowledge to those who actually know the history of immigration in this country.
    For obvious reasons to those not playing games, it makes far more sense for the federal government to retain singular authority over immigration, since illegals and legals could just move to another state - which is what is happening as they leave AZ toward sanctuary areas. Since only a uniform, national policy can be argued, a state-level patchwork of legislation would be a disaster.

    Which is why the AZ law simply affirmed what the feds already have in place, they are simply going to enforce it where the feds have abdicated enforcement of their own rules.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by rogerredy View Post
    The FBI and INS already exist, so unlike homeland security, new agencies won't be needed. Further, just the threat of a massive per illegal fine would be enough to chill the hiring of them, sending most back out of the country voluntarily.
    Enforcement costs money.



    Where did I suggest "new federal laws"? Increasing penalties for already extant crimes is not an extension of legislation, its a confirmation of already existing law.
    Are you under the impression that an amendment isn't a new federal law?

    And stop with the infantile labeling, besides the fact that it is obvious that my views are FAR from liberal, it is only undermining your non-existent arguments by trying to personally insult, and that you are a moderator makes it even worse.
    Your views are liberal using the modern parlance. Which implies that a reinterpretation of certain clauses are used to usurp state's rights about issues and federalizes authority.

    It is, without a doubt, a Hamiltonian big-government reinterpretation of the enumerated powers related to naturalization as wellas a reinterpretation of invasion specifically to suit a purpose not defined by the constitution.

    It is very similar to Hamilton's re-envisionment of the general welfare clause. It was the attitude taken by Adams when he passed the Alien and Sedition acts.


    How about upholding the forum rules? Or do mods get a pass?
    If you feel that I am in violation of the rules, report the post. Just because you think "liberal" is an epitaph, doesn't mean it actually is an epitaph.

    And just because you are in denial of your liberalism, doesn't mean I'm not at liberty to point out the liberalism inherent in your positions.


    The country survived quite well for almost 200 years without massive illegal alien employment.
    This is the single most ignorant, revisionist, delusional thing I've ever heard in my entire life.

    I also find it hilarious that you are attacking a cross section of the US demographic for being "lazy and unproductive," who are the same people that the illegal aliens are displacing out of the jobs that they would be traditionally taking.
    What prevents them form taking the jobs now?

    If these lower-skilled jobs paid living wages - then the bottom sections of society would be able to find work that would make them more productive citizens. Yet you attack them because they cannot find work - because these jobs are all held by illegals, at wage levels unsustainable in the US - but if sent abroad, provide a splendid level of compensation for a 3rd-world country...
    Illegal aliens both manage to live off of those wages AND, as you've pointed out numerous times already, send quite a bit of it back to Mexico.

    All while costing the taxpayers less than these same citizens whom you are defending.

    Excuse me if I don't cry a river over the fact that these lazy citizens refuse to accept a lower wage in order to work. They are not above this.

    See post above, there are very few instances in the Constitution that refer to what type of punishment can be interred on a crime outside of treason - does that mean that the federal government is unable to do punish any crimes committed?
    Well then, I guess that reasoning should apply equally well to my arguments. I mean, you are in favor of passing an amendment retroactively revoking the citizenship of millions of Americans born after 1990.

    How is that different form what I've proposed (except for the fact that mine specifically targets those who do not contribute and are a waste of taxmoney all around, while yours punishes children for the sins of their parents.)


    I think you've reached maximum frustration and just run out of gas.
    I've actually been very entertained by the way you contradict your own positions and say crazy things like "The country survived quite well for almost 200 years without massive illegal alien employment."



    And by solution, do you refer to your silly idea of mass deporting millions of US citizens you deem "unproductive"?
    I don't deem them unproductive, the numbers do. My solution is purely economic.



    Come up with a constitutionally legitimate, rational offering, and stop the insults, its unbecoming of a moderator, and is not making your points any stronger.
    As I said before, if you feel I am violating a rule, report the post. If I have broken any rules, I'll be dealt with the same as anyone.

    Do not take it upon yourself to play mod in thread.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  10. #240
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by rogerredy View Post
    Sadly, I personally think that in 25 years this AZ action could accelerate an event that might be inevitable; the breakup of the country. Before thinking I went off the deep-end, think about the logical next steps here:

    -a single state passes laws strongly affirming the federal ones, forcing illegals to leave the state for more "alien-friendly" ones, like CA and NY

    - as other, more conservative states continue to pass laws like AZ, there will be mass illegal movements into regions of the country (northeast, wst coast, south florida) that are illegal sanctuaries

    - the costs/burdens on the sanctuary areas will eventually become so overwhelming, that they will become hopelessly bankrupt, forcing the mass exodus of legal citizens to the conservative states, a process already underway due to the differential income taxes between the "red" and "blue" states

    - the sanctuary areas will collapse due to the unsustainable social welfare levels provided to the illegals, and these areas will closely resemble non-functional, ungovernable African and Latin american banana republics.

    Given the mass import of both illegal and legal hispanics into the US, this breakup would have taken say, 50 years - but the tragedy of the AZ decision - one I personally applaud - has only moved up the timetable by several decades.
    Afterthought:

    I think that if our country is ever completely divided it will be because no one could compromise or understand the other position.. I've read a lot of 'anti-national anthem' 'anti-pledge' and 'anti-unity' speech over the years. I think that if we're divided we can't stay together - there's no glue.

    The overall fail and reason for this problem is that it became OK to not *be ok* with our country. Not being proud or identifying with one whole "What it means to be an American" is the source of this entire issue.

    If everyone who was here illegally *loved* this country and respected and cherished this country then certain problems wouldn't have exploded when one state had to do something.

    this tension and drama wouldn't happen if only people would:
    A) Agree that illegal immigration is bringing with it problems.
    B) Accept that not all illegals are bad people - but quite a few are and those that are bad people are kidnapping, murdering and destroying innocent peoples' lives (including innocent illegals who ARE only trying to do what's right for their family or Citizens (natural born or otherwise) who are, also, trying to do what's right.
    C) Recognize that there is a problem and we MUST do something about - the longer we go without doing anything the worse it will become
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 05-16-10 at 11:45 AM.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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