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Thread: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    How much would that cost to house 6-10 million prisoners?
    That is the problem, If you or I used a stollen SSN they would build more prisons if thats what it took to lock our asses up. But when 6-10 million criminal illegal felons do it we worry about how much it would cost.
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post

    He is an honest man and would not do that.
    He's an "honest man" who works illegally in this country but has too much 'integrity' to work illegally in his home country?



    And how the **** does he own property as an illegal? This "honest man" have an illegal SSN and other papers?

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    He's an "honest man" who works illegally in this country but has too much 'integrity' to work illegally in his home country?



    And how the **** does he own property as an illegal? This "honest man" have an illegal SSN and other papers?
    Hes using fake documentation, that makes him a felon. A criminal that belongs in prison.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    So in one breath you basically say estimates are useless, and then in the very next you use an estimate (and the far upper limits of the estimates as well.. presented as a fact no less).
    Why don't we ask all bank robbers we can find - and those who admit to bank robbing - how much money they've made stealing. Its as scientific as asking a trespasser in the US about coming out of the shadows and declaring their existence...estimates of these people are built on sand.

    The only FACTS are those symptomatic in nature, like how many hospitals have gone bankrupt - like St Vincent's here in NYC - b/c there are so many illegals using their emergency room rather than a doctor's office. THAT is a FACT, not an estimate, guess, dream, or hope.

    Generally, from everything I've seen on the matter, the consensus view seems to be that there are around 11-12 million illegals in the country.
    Consensus of ESTIMATES, which are again, meaningless.

    The 50% estimates I've seen are based on these estimates and the amount of "extra" money found in medicare and SS money.
    See bolded - and what "extra" money? Both medicare and SS are broke

    They are often used in arguments against illegal aliens.
    ONE illegal alien is too much, I do not need a gross estimate of their total numbers. And I see hospitals closing all over the country due to illegals...

    The facts are present in the studies, which are found at the links to which I refer.
    "Studies"? Hilarious..."oh bank robber, bank robber, come out and tell us how much money you've made today...."

    What you keep repeating without sourcing is the rhetoric.
    Except in like 5 responses to me, you have yet to address ANY points I've made...

    True, I should have said "refund". My apologies.
    Most people do not get a substantial refund, it does not matter.

    Yes, but most W2 employees making the same amount as the average illegal receives a refund of nearly all income tax paid.
    This is an absurd statement unsupported by facts, since there is no way to compare what a W2 on the books is paid vs. an illegal off the books...

    The fact that they are low income is actually a huge part of my argument. Almost all of the money paid by the LEGAL W2 employees at comparable incomes gets refunded at the end of the year.
    Where do you get this fantasy? The NYS/Federal tax income credit is not sufficient to refund the taxes paid for those earning $60,000 per year, the median US household.

    Almost none of the income taxes that do get paid by illegals gets refunded.
    You keep repeating the same contradiction; half of all illegals (according to you) are off the books, so therefore, they would pay zero income taxes. However, they DO use alot of services...

    Thus, when taken as a whole, it's likely that illegals pay more income tax than comparable legal citizens (they do pay less into SS and Medicare, but they take almost none of these as well)
    #1-this is based upon yr earlier statement, that most illegals who should get a refund don't - which is nonsense and #2- as I've stated, the DO use services, such as hospitals, schools, etc, in spades...the illegal with 9 kids is certainly using alot of services.

    Most people with the same level of income PAY ZERO income tax as well. Teh fact that ANY illegals are paying income tax, and not getting it refunded, means that as a whole, more income tax is paid by illegals than is paid by comparable legals.
    There is no factual basis to this repeated statement, and those earning the avg. household inc. are not going to get a refund.

    There is income tax being paid on these wages. The money that is sent abroad doesn't differentiate between what was sent by legals and what was sent by illegals, nor does it differentiate between those who use fake SS numbers and those who don't.
    How is income tax being paid by those off the books? And the second part makes no sense: "it doesn't differentiate..." Huh?

    You'd be surprised at the amount of people who support an unconstitutional increase of federal authority regarding state residency laws and support the judicial activism that granted federal authority to the issue of residency in the first place, then.
    One who supports the enforcement of law, whether it is at the federal or state level, is generally a conservative. That the feds have so utterly failed to enforce the law has compelled local lawmakers to pick up the slack.

    Judicial activism does not include writing law that allows local law enforcement to act upon federal laws...

    If you are as far from liberal as one can be, then you clearly must agree with me that legal residency was not a federal power enumerated by the constitution.
    Nope, I don't. A conservative on this issue, as all others, supports a safe, stable and defended US homeland. That means that trespassers are to be expelled/deported/executed on a case by case basis.

    I've been using sources provided by my opponents in this debate to in my arguments. One cannot say that I'm using biased sources.
    Estimates of uncountable numbers is not a sign of "bias", the data by definition cannot be accurately quantified, period, except by anecdotal events, like hospital closings, and counting the proportion of undocumented children in a public school system.

    Fact: Illegals cost less federal money on average than the average citizen does. This was shown in the study I keep directing you to, which is actually arguing against illegal immigrants (i.e. has a polar opposite view on illegals than I do).
    This is not a fact obviously, since hospitals are closing due to unsustainable numbers of illegals using their facilities, prisons are loaded with illegals, and public school systems are filled with illegal children - and using your information for a moment - since half of all illegals do not pay ANY income taxes, therefore, it is obvious they are a huge cost to the country.

    If again, we use your numbers, 6 million people are off the books and pay no taxes, all social/civic services they use; a library, street cleaning, public roads and infrastructure, etc., are paid for by someone else. How someone can rationally claim they are not a massive expense is unfathomable.

    As for your point on deporting what you claim as unproductive citizens, now that would take an amount of "judicial activism" counted by the ton...an idea fit for a different thread.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    So in one breath you basically say estimates are useless, and then in the very next you use an estimate (and the far upper limits of the estimates as well.. presented as a fact no less). Sense of humor... you gots one.

    Generally, from everything I've seen on the matter, the consensus view seems to be that there are around 11-12 million illegals in the country.

    The 50% estimates I've seen are based on these estimates and the amount of "extra" money found in medicare and SS money.


    They are often used in arguments against illegal aliens.




    The facts are present in the studies, which are found at the links to which I refer. What you keep repeating without sourcing is the rhetoric.





    Seems to be your MO since you've yet to substantiate any of the things you've claimed.




    True, I should have said "refund". My apologies.





    Yes, but most W2 employees making the same amount as the average illegal receives a refund of nearly all income tax paid.

    The fact that they are low income is actually a huge part of my argument. Almost all of the money paid by the LEGAL W2 employees at comparable incomes gets refunded at the end of the year.

    Almost none of the income taxes that do get paid by illegals gets refunded.

    Thus, when taken as a whole, it's likely that illegals pay more income tax than comparable legal citizens (they do pay less into SS and Medicare, but they take almost none of these as well)




    Most people with the same level of income PAY ZERO income tax as well. Teh fact that ANY illegals are paying income tax, and not getting it refunded, means that as a whole, more income tax is paid by illegals than is paid by comparable legals.




    There is income tax being paid on these wages. The money that is sent abroad doesn't differentiate between what was sent by legals and what was sent by illegals, nor does it differentiate between those who use fake SS numbers and those who don't.



    You'd be surprised at the amount of people who support an unconstitutional increase of federal authority regarding state residency laws and support the judicial activism that granted federal authority to the issue of residency in the first place, then.

    If you are as far from liberal as one can be, then you clearly must agree with me that legal residency was not a federal power enumerated by the constitution. The full extent of federal authority granted by the constitution towards immigrants was that of creating universal naturalization laws. Residency was specifically left out of the constitution because it is only the state that has the right to decide who is a legal resident of said state.

    Just as was explained by Jefferson in the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798.




    I've been using sources provided by my opponents in this debate to in my arguments. One cannot say that I'm using biased sources.





    That'd be fine if it were true, but my statements are supported by the research as well as common sense. The links I have directed you to provide the evidence.

    Your claims are completely unsubstantiated and they actually do fly in the face of the research AND the common sense.




    I take it you don't have anything that can prove my statement wrong, thus proving that all you have shared thus far really is mindless rhetoric.



    That's not even remotely close to what I've said, and it moves the goal posts form your original comment of:



    Illegals who use fake SS numbers pay into medicare without having any access to medicare.

    You could only have made the above statement about medicare if you were ignorant of the fact that they are funded in entirely different fashions since both SSS and Medicare receive major boosts form illegals that are never drawn from by those illegals.

    Fact: Illegals cost less federal money on average than the average citizen does. This was shown in the study I keep directing you to, which is actually arguing against illegal immigrants (i.e. has a polar opposite view on illegals than I do).

    I'm sticking with those data because it actually supports my argument about deporting natural born citizens who are low-income and low education and replacing them with illegals to save money.

    It'll be cheaper in the long run to do this. It's the most obvious conclusion one could reach when one actually looks at ALL of the data (i.e. not just the cost of illegals, but making a true comparison of their costs to those of citizens who are comparable in skill and education level to illegals)

    Why deport those who cost us less? They are undocumented and they keep coming back over and over again.

    Instead we should deport the citizens who cost more than double what an illegal does. The bonus is that these people are clearly documented already AND since they managed to live in this country form birth without acquiring more skills and education than an illegal alien, they are probably too lazy and slow witted to successfully return once deported. I say send em over to Mexico. We'll take most of their hardest workers and they get our laziest ones in return.

    The fact that illegals cost money is not an issue to me. I don't deny that.

    What I'm saying is that they cost less than citizens at comparable levels of education and income. This should be simple common sense because citizens have more access to entitlements than illegals do.

    Thus, the most expedient and economical approach is to replace our citizen underclass with an illegal non-citizen underclass.

    I would support such legislation in my state.
    Do you have another source? I don't remember seeing this said in the links I provided.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    He's an "honest man" who works illegally in this country but has too much 'integrity' to work illegally in his home country?



    And how the **** does he own property as an illegal? This "honest man" have an illegal SSN and other papers?

    Perhaps I should have said GOOD man, instead of honest.

    My point is, that this is not a black and white issue, what if you could not support your family in the country you lived? And the country next to you provided that living if you broke the law initially when going there?

    I support this law, I am just saying there is more to the immigration issue than just the law. And this is why there is going to be a very big stink over this, if Obama decides to tackle immigration.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    Perhaps I should have said GOOD man, instead of honest.

    My point is, that this is not a black and white issue, what if you could not support your family in the country you lived? And the country next to you provided that living if you broke the law initially when going there?

    I support this law, I am just saying there is more to the immigration issue than just the law. And this is why there is going to be a very big stink over this, if Obama decides to tackle immigration.
    1) I wouldn't have a family if I couldn't support it
    2) If I wanted to immigrate to the country next door, I'd follow their rules for doing so and be one of the millions allowed in LEGALLY.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    you think they want to be here illegally they would be legally if they could this law made Arizona a police state they have to much power. once again proving American democracy is American hypocracy.
    i am acidrain! and i approve of this message

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Obama is completely incompetent. This is a political game drummed up by the democrats in order to get illegal's votes. Apparently the federal government is able to see if someone has health care but not ask if someone is here ILLEGALLY.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law
    Well, I guess they can all come to Texas, then.
    For all our flaws, we don't make laws persecuting Mexicans.
    We manage to coexist peacefully side by side with them, and you know what?
    Our economy and employment rate is still great, while the rest of the country is apparently going to hell in a handcart.
    No reason to demonize Mexicans or look for scapegoats when everything's going so well for us.
    Go figger.

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