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Thread: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    One big reason is the economic impact of the illegals in this recession. Illegals pay an estimated 1/4 of the taxes that they should (working under the table, using false SS numbers) yet using a disproportionate amount of public sevices (emergercy room health care plans, welfare, criminal activities needing jails and officers to work the crimes, public defenders to represent them, interpreters to explain to them, schooling for their children)

    I imagine that if the economy was booming and people did not have to look so closely at every dime, then the illegal problem would remain swept under the rug, as it has been.
    Working "under the table" and using "false SS numbers" are two very different things. If someone works "under the table" they are usually working off the books and thus they are not paying anything from their wages. No insurance, social security, fed/state income taxes, nothing.

    Using a fake social security number is not as clear cut it seems. If a fake, or phony SS # is used then SS taxes will be taken out and put into the SS system. However, that person will never be able to collect that money. And I don't think they care.

    Many times these people use the same, and sometimes a valid, SS #. Again, the taxes will be deducted and put into the system. I'm not sure if the actual owner of the SS # will be able to collect all that $$ as I believe the SS admin has computer programs that validates money accredited to any one account. If Sam Gonzalez shows he paid SS taxes while working 25 jobs at the same time an investigation just might kick off.

    Another note on many people using the same SS #: this happens all the time, and not just with illegals. Many times it's the paper pushers who have to fill out forms or punch data into a system who enter a dupe SS # when the guy in front of them can't remember his.

    So, I'm sure illegals do pay some taxes but, 25%? I'd like to see that data.
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Working "under the table" and using "false SS numbers" are two very different things. If someone works "under the table" they are usually working off the books and thus they are not paying anything from their wages. No insurance, social security, fed/state income taxes, nothing.

    Yes, I meant that they were two different things, I guess my sentence wasn't clear

    Using a fake social security number is not as clear cut it seems. If a fake, or phony SS # is used then SS taxes will be taken out and put into the SS system. However, that person will never be able to collect that money. And I don't think they care.

    Many times these people use the same, and sometimes a valid, SS #. Again, the taxes will be deducted and put into the system. I'm not sure if the actual owner of the SS # will be able to collect all that $$ as I believe the SS admin has computer programs that validates money accredited to any one account. If Sam Gonzalez shows he paid SS taxes while working 25 jobs at the same time an investigation just might kick off.

    Another note on many people using the same SS #: this happens all the time, and not just with illegals. Many times it's the paper pushers who have to fill out forms or punch data into a system who enter a dupe SS # when the guy in front of them can't remember his.

    So, I'm sure illegals do pay some taxes but, 25%? I'd like to see that data.
    Here is a link

    Center for Immigration Studies

    Low Levels of Education Create Deficit. The findings of this study show that the primary reason illegal households create a fiscal deficit at the federal level is that their much lower levels of education result in low incomes and tax payments that are only 28 percent that of other households. Thus, even though the costs they impose are estimated to be only 46 percent those of other households on average, there remains a significant net deficit. Whether one considers their use of services low is a matter of perspective. Because illegals are not even supposed to be in the country, many Americans are angered by the fact that they receive any services at all. This is especially true of transfers to households like food stamps or cash payments from the Child Tax Credit. Although many Americans are upset about their use of public services, there is little evidence that illegals come to America to take advantage of public benefits. Most illegal aliens come for jobs, and the vast majority are in fact employed. But low levels of education mean they unavoidably create large costs for taxpayers.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    illegal immigrants provide a source of cheap labor for many farms and businesses. If you get rid of this labor suddenly, there will be consequences, good, bad or both. For example: if farmers have to pay their help more, they will have to charge more for their products which means that stores will have to charge more. If a restaurant has to pay its employees more, they will have to charge more for the food. Those two examples are just the tip of the iceberg. Its not as easy as mass deportations. You have to take into account the impact this has on businesses and the economy.
    Last edited by Vic Mango; 05-05-10 at 01:00 AM.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    I never said anything about priorities.

    Corporations are only obligated to have employees provide ID. They are not obligated to determine whether it is a legitimate ID. The same thing goes for bartenders.
    In this state you have to have two valid forms of ID. Either a current state issued drivers license or state issued ID card and a social security card. No expired licenses or ID can be accepted. That includes bartenders and fast food chains.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Mango View Post
    illegal immigrants provide a source of cheap labor for many farms and businesses. If you get rid of this labor suddenly, there will be consequences, good, bad or both. For example: if farmers have to pay their help more, they will have to charge more for their products which means that stores will have to charge more. If a restaurant has to pay its employees more, they will have to charge more for the food. Those two examples are just the tip of the iceberg. Its not as easy as mass deportations. You have to take into account the impact this has on businesses and the economy.
    That's OK. The government can reduce taxes to ease the financial burden.
    Not this government of course... they're into Hope (Tax) and Change (Spend) and demonizing business in general. But when we elect sane adults and not socialist ideologues, is it possible.

    Plus, reducing millions of illegals and their illegal offspring from using our schools and services... would lower some costs, improve quality, or both.

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    Last edited by zimmer; 05-05-10 at 06:12 AM.
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Mango View Post
    illegal immigrants provide a source of cheap labor for many farms and businesses. If you get rid of this labor suddenly, there will be consequences, good, bad or both. For example: if farmers have to pay their help more, they will have to charge more for their products which means that stores will have to charge more. If a restaurant has to pay its employees more, they will have to charge more for the food. Those two examples are just the tip of the iceberg. Its not as easy as mass deportations. You have to take into account the impact this has on businesses and the economy.
    Nobody is going to be getting rid of anyone suddenly, you have to get stopped by a cop first then he has to have reason to suspect you have absolutely no respect for the laws of this country by being here illegally. Even then our borders are not secured, so you can come right back in.

    And there are plenty of people that will do those jobs...legal immigrants and maybe even Americans (there is a pretty high unemployment rate right now). Besides money will be saved in terms of tax dollars used to pay for illegals in the public schools, social services, and other things.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    In this state you have to have two valid forms of ID. Either a current state issued drivers license or state issued ID card and a social security card. No expired licenses or ID can be accepted. That includes bartenders and fast food chains.
    And they still don't have to determine whether they are legitimate or not. Fake ID's aren't that hard to get.
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    I had provided a link in the original AZ illegal law thread, I don't remember the name of the study right now, I will have to search for it.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    Here is a link

    Center for Immigration Studies

    Low Levels of Education Create Deficit. The findings of this study show that the primary reason illegal households create a fiscal deficit at the federal level is that their much lower levels of education result in low incomes and tax payments that are only 28 percent that of other households. Thus, even though the costs they impose are estimated to be only 46 percent those of other households on average, there remains a significant net deficit. Whether one considers their use of services low is a matter of perspective. Because illegals are not even supposed to be in the country, many Americans are angered by the fact that they receive any services at all. This is especially true of transfers to households like food stamps or cash payments from the Child Tax Credit. Although many Americans are upset about their use of public services, there is little evidence that illegals come to America to take advantage of public benefits. Most illegal aliens come for jobs, and the vast majority are in fact employed. But low levels of education mean they unavoidably create large costs for taxpayers.
    "only 28% that of other households" isn't the same thing as "1/4 of what they should".

    Just clarifying. The real thing that would need to be looked at to determine what they "should" be paying is how much they pay in compared to comparable households. i.e. one's with the same variables in education and income (which were cited as causal factors in the disparity between households, not working under the table).

    Also, a comparison of their drain on the system should also be looked at in relation to comparable households.

    Looking at the study more completely, we get different totals and conclusions than those you posited before.

    Center for Immigration Studies

    Here's an important one to note:

    With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.
    So, while you attributed the deficit to non-payment of taxes due to illegal status, it appears that the study had a totally different conclusion. The study goes on to indicate that, while they would pay more taxes if they were legalized, they would also have a larger DRAIN on the system.



    Look at the Average Fiscal costs and Fiscal Balance columns.

    What you should immediately notice is that

    1. The costs accrued by illegals is NOT really disproportionate (compared to all other households). It's actually less than half that of the average household. If you look at the simulations of legalizing these immigrants, it would actually INCREASE in both cost and deficit at equal or higher rates than their tax contributions would increase. This gives us a decent idea of how they are in relation to comparable households.

    This was also mentioned in the study:

    On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households
    The thing is, the lower tax amount that they pay is entirely due to their lower incomes, not their illegal status. The reason the tax contributions would increase is that it is assumed their wages would increase.

    But the increase in cost is actually due to their legal status. They would have greater access to benefits as legal residents than they do if they are illegal residents, and thus, they would use more of them.

    Finally, just to debunk the major lie that gets spread about the amount that Illegal aliens use public resources:

    Reducing the costs illegals impose would probably be the most difficult of the three options because illegal households already impose only about 46 percent as much in costs on the federal government as other households.
    An Illegal household is 54% cheaper than the average household.

    If one actually compared an Illegal household to comparable natural-born citizen household with equivalent education and income, my guess is that the Illegal household would be a hell of a lot cheaper than just 54%.


    Thus, I have a really good solution that would lead to much higher revenues.

    Deport all of the natural-born US citizens who are comparable to the illegals in skill and education and replace them with illegals.

    They'll be a **** ton cheaper resources and labor-wise, and while they are still going to be a drain on the system, it's a much lower drain on the system.
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Also, they will use "00" as the middle two numbers so it isn't actually anyone's SS#.
    They'd still be paying in, they would just not have any ability to get a return. Meaning that they probably pay a ****-ton more than American citizens of comparable income levels.
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    They'd still be paying in, they would just not have any ability to get a return. Meaning that they probably pay a ****-ton more than American citizens of comparable income levels.
    No, they don't. They claim 9 dependents throught the year which means that hardly anything is withheld, if anything, and then they don't file at the end of the year.
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