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Thread: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

  1. #121
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It is realistic to deport them, But deportation is only part of the solution. Other states can enact laws similar to those in Oklahoma and Arizona,create stiffer punishments on the local level for employers who hire illegals such as prison sentences,harsher fines, permanent loss of business license and ability to own and or operate a business and make them subject to the same assetts seizure and forfeiture laws that drug dealers and another criminals are subjected to. .
    I like this better than trying to secure the border. Make them unwelcome.

    Operation Wetback - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The effort began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1075 Border Patrol agents, along with state and local police agencies, to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics. In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born minor dependent children as is standard international practice. This was although the children were by current legal interpretation of the 14th amendment U.S. citizens. [3] Some 750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 immigrants were caught in the two states. Around 488,000 illegal immigrants are claimed to have left voluntarily for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimates that 500,000 to 700,000 had left Texas on their own.
    Interesting.



    So basically you want to give anyone a pass who asks for one? No criminal background checks, health screenings and etc?
    No they would get those checks.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The thing is, to me, that with an on-demand visa, anyone who wants to come can. There would be a minimal illegal immigration problem as all would be legal at the border crossings.
    I disagree completely that there would be minimal illegal immigration problem. By making them legal suddenly they have to be making minimum wage, have to be in livable working conditions, have to be in reasonable hours of working, have to be taxed, etc. Avoiding the above is part of the reasons for people to come over illegally in the first place or the reasons they're able to get jobs. All you're doing is decreasing, but not extremely minimizing, the number of illegals by doing that OR you have people taking the visa, enjoying the benefits that gives them, while still doing everything else under the table but now without fear of getting kicked out.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I inject lidocaine up my nose, so neener
    Ain't nobody on this forum more hardcore than you, sistah.

  4. #124
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    very simplistic.
    Very honest.

    no, i don't.
    Actually, you do.

    i support a one time amnesty in combination with enforcing current laws, to the maximum.
    Then you support rewarding people who break the law. Illegals broke the law to come here. Amnesty is a reward. There is no middle ground.

    it's too expensive to try to round up all illegals and deport them, why not absorb contributors and banish those without jobs?
    More than the billions they cost us every year? Doubtful.

    then, make it an offesne that carries automatic jail time for those who hire illegals, and make any aid to illegals impossible to get. then we'd see how many would cross the border.
    I'm all for that but that doesn't excuse giving people who break the law a reward of amnesty.

    Why do you only want to reward the illegals but punish the people hiring? Why can't we punish both sides that break the law?
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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I disagree completely that there would be minimal illegal immigration problem. By making them legal suddenly they have to be making minimum wage, have to be in livable working conditions, have to be in reasonable hours of working, have to be taxed, etc. Avoiding the above is part of the reasons for people to come over illegally in the first place or the reasons they're able to get jobs. All you're doing is decreasing, but not extremely minimizing, the number of illegals by doing that OR you have people taking the visa, enjoying the benefits that gives them, while still doing everything else under the table but now without fear of getting kicked out.
    I see what you mean. I am in favor of penalizing businesses that hire under the table. Don't we have existing laws which cover that on the legal employment side of the house (i.e. not regarding illegals). Those would apply in my scenario. They should be enforced.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Niggling lil problem with that bromide is that most "fast food" is a corporate endeavor and most certainly not hiring illegal immigrants. Thanks be to God that the sacrifice of green pools and yellow lawns (most lawns I have seen in AZ are pebble or of the colorful rock variety or completely free of grass) is a truly tolerable one compared to the billions of dollars in cost and effect that illegal immigration has upon the US and this state. Somehow I suspect all three situations (oh the horror!) won't last too long.

    But there you have it folks, we better not enforce actual immigration laws, because of yellow lawns and green pools and fast food! Talk about priorities.
    I never said anything about priorities.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    No citizen is going to do back breaking labor for five bucks an hour,which is why you raise the wages to something people are willing to do that back breaking labor for.

    I can tell you that illegals won't do backbreaking labor for 5 bucks either, 10 bucks yes

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    i am talking about a one time amnesty, in combination with stern enforcement of laws already in place.
    Thats already been tried, the situation today is the result.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Very true. I did not say though that past immigrants didn't assimilate, but that simply as more and more immigrants have came in the desire for assimilation over intigration has increased.

    This is compounded by the increase of illegals, which by and large generally have less of a grasp for the countries history and heritage and a far worse grasp on the language.
    As a person who has a familial relationship with immigrant cultures from two different countries (by birth and marriage, many of which originally entered the country both legally and illegally) and friendship relationships with immigrants form many other countries, I would say that it really depends on the individual (and the grasp of English often has to do with the country of origin. Nobody in the Irish culture has a language problem when they come here, but I know a **** ton of formerly illegal Irish immigrants).

    I would say that the real issue is whether the immigration from that nation decreases over time or increases/stays the same over time. If the former, assimilation will occur in very few generations. If the latter, it tends to happen in later generations.

    Language is an extremely important barrier for a country and a culture. Legal Immigrants must demonstrate at least a workable level of English based on an oral test and answering variety of questions given in English. This is not the case of Illegals.
    I may be wrong, but I'm not aware of any specific tests required to gain legal residency, only for Naturalization

    For example, my mother-in-law spoke no English when she arrived in the US as a legal immigrant in the mid-70's. In fact, my wife (a natural-born US citizen) did not speak any English herself until she was five because Italian (more accurately Sicilian) was the only language spoken at home.

    Ironically, my father, as an Irishman, spoke English fluently when he arrived here illegally in '71. (He became a US Citizen in 1977 shortly after my birth, so if anyone wants to freak out and calls for his deportation have at it, but it ain't happening )



    The Language barrier has increased drastically as more and more illegals have came into the country.

    And while there were the places like little italy and china town, to my understanding many of those places were rather open and inviting to the population to come into them (Though honestly I may be wrong on this). While they kept their culture they did not necessarily essentially form into sub pockets isolated from others which seems to be more common now.


    Additionally, and correct me if I am wrong Tuck, but it has always been my understanding that there was generally a notion of patriotism that went through much of the immigration population that came into the country. Not a feeling that somehow they're entitled to be here, but that they were lucky to be in a place of such oppertunity. That they loved the country and while they did keep and honor their past culture they embraced also that this was their home. I don't remember a lot of resturants in the past, or even in modern day DC's china town, with Chinese flags strewn along the wall or hanging outside the shop. I don't know if in Little Italy shop names were written out Italian rather than English.
    Depends on the country of origin. Chinese flags will probably be unlikely in part due to the nature of the Chinese government.

    Irish flags and Italian flags are insanely common in Chicago. And polish flags have been all over the place since the Polish president's plane went down.

    Also, sticking with Chicago, I've seen shop names in Korean, Chinese, Polish, Italian, Serbian, Arabic, etc, etc, etc.

    Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but even if I am it doesn't change the notion that I think that's what many believe...even if it is a romanticized perhaps hollywood version of it...and the prevelance of something so strikingly different from that causes the aggitation.
    Personally, I believe it is a romanticized version of things. And I also agree that this romanticized version of things does tend to cause the agitation once the not-so-romantic-reality intervenes.



    That said, I know I can go around through Herndon Virginia and see China King (chinese), Spice World (indian), and Mediteranian Breeze (greek) with a mix of customers going in and understandable english being spoken while seeing "la computadora estacion" and "El Supermercado III" with mexican flags hanging from it and not a single white person within site.
    There are a few factors here:

    1. It's Virginia. Not knocking Virginia in any way, but how big are the immigrant communities from other places besides Mexico? You said it's a more recent phenomenon. If there is a small immigrant community from these restaurant's countries of origin, they will need to target Americans. Would your average Virginian go to a restaurant named "Lao Sze Chuan", "Tandoor" or "Psistaria" (which would be some of my favorite Chinese, Indian, and Greek restaurants, respectively, here in Chicago)? Not to mention Edelweiss (German), Oggi Tratoria (Italian), Staropolska (Polish), San Soo Gab San (Korean) etc, etc, etc.

    2. Are these restaurants with English names actually owned by immigrants who's food it is serving? The Greek restaurant might be since Greeks tend to love starting restaurants all over the world. HAve the burger joints in Chicago are Greek owned. Hell, the the Chinese and Indian place could be owned by Greeks as well. .

    Maybe the fact that I'm from Chicago, which has one of the most diverse immigrant communities in the country affects my stance about assimilation.

    And I'm not just seeing Spanish either. In fact, I see quite a few more Polish signs than Spanish ones. Especially in my neighborhood, which has become predominantly Polish and Serbian.

    Sure, its superficial and its silly, and its mostly just an image thing, but its stuff like that which causes some of the split between what people think of as immigrants and what they think of when they think illegal. When 80% of the illegal immigrant population is hispanic, and when the hispanic culture and locations in the country seem to be the least inviting and the least assimilated, then it raises the dislike for the seeming lack of assimilation in people.
    It's really just the same old, same old. People tend to dislike the primary immigrant group of a region, regardless of where they come from. Mostly because of their misguided ideas that immigrant groups usually assimilate when they come in large numbers.

    In reality, it's the general size immigrant community in the region, regardless of whether it is legally here or illegally here, that prevents the appearance of assimilation. this is because assimilation occurs at a slower rate than immigration.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    I guess what I don't understand is why the illegal immigrant issue is a huge deal nowadays. It kind of started during the Bush administration and has been going fairly steady since. Why is illegal immigration suddenly such a huge issue? People have been sneaking across the border for decades. Why is this now a big enough deal to implement laws like these? One would think that there would be far bigger fish to fry, especially in this post-9/11 world. I'm not taking one side of this issue or the other, I'm honestly just curious.

    One big reason is the economic impact of the illegals in this recession. Illegals pay an estimated 1/4 of the taxes that they should (working under the table, using false SS numbers) yet using a disproportionate amount of public sevices (emergercy room health care plans, welfare, criminal activities needing jails and officers to work the crimes, public defenders to represent them, interpreters to explain to them, schooling for their children)

    I imagine that if the economy was booming and people did not have to look so closely at every dime, then the illegal problem would remain swept under the rug, as it has been.

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