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Thread: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The need for that and the regulation of that is, IMO, a State issue, not a federal one.
    Control of the border is a National Security issue and therefore a Federal issue. As things stand right now, the Fed is like an old mule..... you have to hit it between the eyes with a 2x4 to get it's attention, the Arizona law is the 2x4.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Don't want to get too long into it cause its not really the topic and diverges it a bit but...

    "Create a visa-on-demand program at the border." - I actually have no issue with us limiting the amount of people in the country, and thus the amount of immigrants both naturalized and on visa's. Population growth is already rising at a fair tick in the U.S. and inflating it through this I think is likely not good. Contributes greater crowding to our cities and brings down property values not to mention saftey issues. I know myself, and multiple others, in the Northern Va area that turned down houses because you can clearly tell there's a family of 11 or 12 people living next door, likely in and out at all hours of the nights and the majority of which you have absolutely no way to understand.

    I'm fine with Visa's being given out for legitimate reasons that are likely to provide contribute in some way, but I do think a limitation on the number is needed. In part it is I reject the notion of people doing "work American's won't do". That's incorrect, its doing work at a far cheaper price...at times at an illegal price...that American's won't do. I don't think an on demand visa is going to stop illegal immigration because you'd still have people coming over so they can work for under minimum wage in perhaps illegal conditions that they couldn't with a Visa.

    I do however think we need to improve the Visa process so that we can make it a bit easier and quicker to access it, so the numbers allowed in more accurately reflect the amount of people that would be most beneficial, and stiffer penalties for not adhering to the rules/laws regarding it once you're here.

    "Provide instructions to get a green card once here with an on-demand visa" - As above. I think there needs to be limits on immigration. People keep pointing to the countries founding, however to do so is ignorance of the highest order. The years they point to America was expanding, with much space and needing a population boom. This is not the case now as we have a large population, ever shrinking free space, and thus a need to limit how many we willingly add to the population.

    "Provide all illegal immigrants with an on-demand visa." - And while I can understand why you do this in your scenario, I would not want it because in a situation where there's no on-demand visa's its rewarding them with seeming no punishment.

    "If an illegal immigrant is caught in a felony, make em do the time then deport them" "If a visa holder or green card holder commits a felony, also make em do the time then deport them" - This in part hits an ancillary point to my issue and shows how everythings connected, but our prison system is too nice. I would say this would be fine though

    "Legalize drugs" - Unsure how I feel about this one. I'm more in the legalize marijuana and possibly go more for decriminalization the use of most other drugs camp

    "Don't worry about the border" - Absolutely not and I reject the emotional ploy with comparing it to a prison, as it is about getting in not getting out. Having secured borders, and knowing who and when what is coming into the country, is a key component in making sure we don't have this situation happen yet again.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Control of the border is a National Security issue and therefore a Federal issue.
    Not really.

    That's just the rationalization used to usurp State authority and increase federal authority.

    It's not like a secure border is anything but a pipe dream anyway.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Most immigrants in the past never really assimilated, either. Their cultural marks are still evident in the ethnic neighborhoods of cities like Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Boston, San Francisco etc.

    It was usually their bi-cultural children and subsequent grandchildren who really assimilated.

    The assumption that immigrants of the bygone era actually assimilated ignores reality. That reality is the existence of neighborhoods with names like "Chinatown", "Little Italy", "Greektown" etc.
    Very true. I did not say though that past immigrants didn't assimilate, but that simply as more and more immigrants have came in the desire for assimilation over intigration has increased.

    This is compounded by the increase of illegals, which by and large generally have less of a grasp for the countries history and heritage and a far worse grasp on the language.

    Language is an extremely important barrier for a country and a culture. Legal Immigrants must demonstrate at least a workable level of English based on an oral test and answering variety of questions given in English. This is not the case of Illegals.

    The Language barrier has increased drastically as more and more illegals have came into the country.

    And while there were the places like little italy and china town, to my understanding many of those places were rather open and inviting to the population to come into them (Though honestly I may be wrong on this). While they kept their culture they did not necessarily essentially form into sub pockets isolated from others which seems to be more common now.

    Additionally, and correct me if I am wrong Tuck, but it has always been my understanding that there was generally a notion of patriotism that went through much of the immigration population that came into the country. Not a feeling that somehow they're entitled to be here, but that they were lucky to be in a place of such oppertunity. That they loved the country and while they did keep and honor their past culture they embraced also that this was their home. I don't remember a lot of resturants in the past, or even in modern day DC's china town, with Chinese flags strewn along the wall or hanging outside the shop. I don't know if in Little Italy shop names were written out Italian rather than English.

    Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but even if I am it doesn't change the notion that I think that's what many believe...even if it is a romanticized perhaps hollywood version of it...and the prevelance of something so strikingly different from that causes the aggitation.

    That said, I know I can go around through Herndon Virginia and see China King (chinese), Spice World (indian), and Mediteranian Breeze (greek) with a mix of customers going in and understandable english being spoken while seeing "la computadora estacion" and "El Supermercado III" with mexican flags hanging from it and not a single white person within site.

    Sure, its superficial and its silly, and its mostly just an image thing, but its stuff like that which causes some of the split between what people think of as immigrants and what they think of when they think illegal. When 80% of the illegal immigrant population is hispanic, and when the hispanic culture and locations in the country seem to be the least inviting and the least assimilated, then it raises the dislike for the seeming lack of assimilation in people.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Not really.

    That's just the rationalization used to usurp State authority and increase federal authority.
    BS..... National Security is one of the few things that the Fed is mandated to do Constitutionally.

    It's not like a secure border is anything but a pipe dream anyway.
    Be real...... if we really wanted to secure our border, we could with modern day technology and small fast reaction forces.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    BS..... National Security is one of the few things that the Fed is mandated to do Constitutionally.
    I never said it wasn't a constitutional mandate. I said securing the border is not a National Security issue. There's a difference.

    Which is why I was very clear about the friendly nations aspect of my statements earlier. We do not share any borders with unfriendly nations, thus it's not a national security issue.

    Be real...... if we really wanted to secure our border, we could with modern day technology and small fast reaction forces.
    We use loads of technology right now in the airports and we used it in the past, pre-9/11. We still let the terrorists in. We even recently gave one citizenship shortly before he attempted to bomb New York.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    That's a fair point. If we are not going to deport them, and I don't think it is realistic to do so, they need to start paying taxes.
    It is realistic to deport them, But deportation is only part of the solution. Other states can enact laws similar to those in Oklahoma and Arizona,create stiffer punishments on the local level for employers who hire illegals such as prison sentences,harsher fines, permanent loss of business license and ability to own and or operate a business and make them subject to the same assetts seizure and forfeiture laws that drug dealers and another criminals are subjected to. .



    What's operation wetback?

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback]Operation Wetback - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    The effort began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1075 Border Patrol agents, along with state and local police agencies, to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics. In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born minor dependent children as is standard international practice. This was although the children were by current legal interpretation of the 14th amendment U.S. citizens. [3] Some 750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 immigrants were caught in the two states. Around 488,000 illegal immigrants are claimed to have left voluntarily for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimates that 500,000 to 700,000 had left Texas on their own.


    I am not suggesting amnesty. I am suggesting changing immigration policy to visa-on-demand and legalizing illegal immigrants.

    So basically you want to give anyone a pass who asks for one? No criminal background checks, health screenings and etc?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Hell as is proven by the AZ bill, we don't have to deport all of them. Many of them will leave on their own!
    I agree. Make to where illegals can not work and will actually get arrested by the authorities for being here illegally then they will leave on their own. Illegals are not going to stay where they are not welcomed and can not find work.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I actually have no issue with us limiting the amount of people in the country, and thus the amount of immigrants both naturalized and on visa's.

    I'm fine with Visa's being given out for legitimate reasons that are likely to provide contribute in some way, but I do think a limitation on the number is needed.

    I don't think an on demand visa is going to stop illegal immigration because you'd still have people coming over so they can work for under minimum wage in perhaps illegal conditions that they couldn't with a Visa.
    The thing is, to me, that with an on-demand visa, anyone who wants to come can. There would be a minimal illegal immigration problem as all would be legal at the border crossings.

    With a limitation on the number of visas, like today but perhaps with more slots available, there would still be illegal immigration pressure at the border requiring us to secure it, an impossible task.


    The years they point to America was expanding, with much space and needing a population boom. This is not the case now as we have a large population, ever shrinking free space, and thus a need to limit how many we willingly add to the population.
    I believe we have plenty of space. We have a low urban density. We need immigrants to pay for entitlements, moreso over the coming decades.


    "Don't worry about the border" - Absolutely not and I reject the emotional ploy with comparing it to a prison, as it is about getting in not getting out. Having secured borders, and knowing who and when what is coming into the country, is a key component in making sure we don't have this situation happen yet again.
    Comparing it to a prison was not an emotional ploy. To secure the border, a wall, we need security elements and observation elements to keep one population on one side of it. You are correct that this does not keep us in as much as them out, so the analogy may be poor.

    As I mentioned above, a restriction on Visas will require securing the border. This is an impossible task. We do not have the money to pay for technology/personnel resources to do this.

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    Re: Immigrant Families Leave Arizona, Fearing Law

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The thing is, to me, that with an on-demand visa, anyone who wants to come can. There would be a minimal illegal immigration problem as all would be legal at the border crossings.
    There are visas on demand, but they're visitation visas and generally expire in 90 days.

    With a limitation on the number of visas, like today but perhaps with more slots available, there would still be illegal immigration pressure at the border requiring us to secure it, an impossible task.
    Allowing 5 - 6 million to come here per year on visas is more than enough.

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