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Thread: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

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    Re: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Actually, up until 9/11, the most dangerous terror attacks WERE homegrown terrorists. We have a lot of nutjobs here, from whackadoo polygamists in the southwest to the sig heilers in the northwest to who knows what in Maine.

    At this point, it's anyone's guess. And, a guess of white supremacists or homegrown militia types isn't any less likely to be accurate than a guess of Islamists.
    Actually even if you stick to saying the most dangerous attacks against the US by terrorist, in the US, something that was not stated previously, we were still struck here before 9/11. It was not hillbillies, white supremacist or polygamists but an organized Muslim terrorist organization. You might even have heard of them, though from your comments so far it seems not so much. Well until 9/11.

    Thanks for playing though.

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    Re: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Actually even if you stick to saying the most dangerous attacks against the US by terrorist, in the US, something that was not stated previously, we were still struck here before 9/11. It was not hillbillies, white supremacist or polygamists but an organized Muslim terrorist organization. You might even have heard of them, though from your comments so far it seems not so much. Well until 9/11.

    Thanks for playing though.
    'cuse?

    I'm not following your post.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    'cuse?

    I'm not following your post.
    Nor should you be, it was aimed after all at the person I was speaking to, see the quote box above my comments? The one I was responding to?

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    Re: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    I was under the impression that except for a case or two of window breakings the Code Pinkos were primarli obnoxious, stuoid, and just plain wahacked out AH's but nothing in the terrorists class.
    Nah they openly aided the insurgency in Fallujah with the aid of a Democrat congressmen IIRC.

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    Re: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    Was it Miracle Gro fertilizer?
    It was probably triple 10, which is a generic garden fertilizer.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

    Official: Suspect in custody in NY car bomb attack - Yahoo! News

    A suspect in last weekend's failed car bomb attack on Times Square was taken into custody late Monday while trying to leave the country, a law enforcement official said.

    The suspect, a Pakistani, was identified at midnight Monday at John F. Kennedy International Airport and was stopped, said the official, who spoke to The Associated Press early Tuesday on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the investigation.

    The suspect was identified as Faisal Shahzad, but his hometown wasn't disclosed. He was being held in New York.
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    Re: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Yea, that attack by Timothy McVeigh was nothing. Sheesh.
    Not at all, it was a large act that is probably the pinnacle of domestic terrorist activity in this country. That said, itís kind of my point. Compare 9/11 to that.

    Oklahomaís death toll was eclipsed almost by a magnitude of 20 by 9/11, with around 10 times more injuries as well. The cost estimated for Oklahoma City was around $650 million. 9/11ís estimated cost was around $100 billion. This s not including the damage 9/11 placed on the economy as the stock market lost $1.4 Trillion dollars in that week.

    Oklahoma was the big domestic act and it is like a candle next to a bonfire when you set it next to 9/11. I do not say that to belittle Oklahoma or the tragedy it was but to illustrate the scope of difference between the two.

    Recent history simply shows us in my opinion that those exterior to this country seemingly are better coordinated, planned, funded, and capable both mentally and in practice of pulling off larger and more devastating attacks than domestic ones. Does this mean itís always the case? No. Could a domestic terrorist pull off something bigger? Sure. But right now out of the two I do not feel that is the more likely case, in part for the exact same reason you gave why you thought this was domestic. Sloppy, more luck than skill, and crude is more a trademark of domestic terrorists it seems than foreign.

    As I said, I think Domestic Terrorists are likely to have a higher frequency and a more localized distracting and terror inducing affect where as I think Foreign Terrorists are more likely to have higher damage and national effect. This is not to say that I think theyíre restricted just to this, but Iíve seen no reason at all to just assume that suddenly Domestic Terrorists are going to jump up in scale and scope so much.

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    Re: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

    Arch, thanks for a GREAT post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    There are a couple of things that I find interesting when comparing Homegrown Terrorism and International Terrorism.

    First, Homegrown Terrorists have a completely different image than International Terrorists. If Muhammad al-Jihad, born in Pakistan, killed 20 people, and interrupted Manhattan business with a car-bomb, then we would have an image of a foreign enemy attacking Americans because he hates Americans. If Carl Sagan, born in Dallas, killed 20 people and interrupted Manhattan business with a car-bomb, then we would look into Sagan's life and be horrified at his living condition, his mental issues, or his socio-economic background.
    I actually disagree to a point. I think you have people on both sides doing this at different times for this. I can point to many of the liberals and libertarians at a point a bit after 9/11 telling us how we need to understand why we make these people hate us, very much akin to what some republicans and libertarians were saying about the guy that flew into the IRS building recently as well. However, despite that, I think by and large everyone wrote both up as crazy assholes with no regard for others.

    Yes, I think you're right to an extent we're more apt to look at domestic terrorist a little closer because of that slight identification as "one of us" in some way shape or form, but I don't think its as extreme as you suggest and I think its usually coupled with still blaming the person and his irrational reasons typically.

    Would you believe a report that said that al-Jihad was not an Islamic extremist, although he was Muslim, and acted for "rational" reasons?
    Would you believe a report that Carl Sagan acted as an agent of Islamic extremism even though he grew up Protestant?
    Once the report came out for sure, yeah. Early on I'd probably give the second less credance than the first, but as I always do I attempt to withhold full judgement until facts are out, not speculation.

    Second, there is the question about how savvy the terrorists are. It seems to be that we expect more from an international terrorist, and that we count on them to be Professionally Terrorists.
    For a few reasons. One, there is an inherent notion of planning in the very notion of coming over into the country to perpetrate an attack. Itís this assumption of planning, and patience, that generally makes people look at foreign terrorists as more likely being somewhat more professional. Second is the assumption typically that terrorists that are foreign are most likely operating within some kind of network, even loosely, while often times the notion for domestic terrorists is more of a loner. While this plays into your suggestion of assumptions and biases in people, I think itís a bias in part backed up somewhat with history.

    I agree with your statements on Al-Qaeda and Terorrism save for the goal. While I agree that completing the attack isnít always required for the goal the preference is always to complete the attack because it significantly increases the affect of said goal.

    I have to disagree with #4. I believe the magnitude of deaths in 9/11 significantly contributed to the impact it had on people.

    I canít disagree more on #5. Case in point the best example would be the 1993 WTC attempted bombings and 9/11. The amount of economic, emotional, and psychological damage done to the country cannot even be seriously compared between the two of them and they canít primarily and almost singularly based on the success on the part of 9/11 and the failure on the part of 1993.

    I think you made a great post and some really well reasoned arguments. I do think there is a definite stereotyping done in our minds and biases inherent from it on foreign and domestic terrorism. That can be seen in the OP even when the notion that this was sloppy immediately made him think domestic. That said, while I think some of it is likely overblown I think some of it is bred there for legitimate reasons.

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    Re: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    Actually even if you stick to saying the most dangerous attacks against the US by terrorist, in the US, something that was not stated previously, we were still struck here before 9/11. It was not hillbillies, white supremacist or polygamists but an organized Muslim terrorist organization. You might even have heard of them, though from your comments so far it seems not so much. Well until 9/11.

    Thanks for playing though.
    Actually, I have considerable familiarity with homegrown terrorists in the U.S., moreso perhaps that probably anyone else on this board, since I've actually worked directly with and interviewed a few.

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    Re: COPS: Times Square Car Bomber Got the Wrong Fertilizer

    I think both types of terrorists are a threat. As McVeigh proved, there are some very angry, white bread terrorists who can pull off quite a large scale event. Then, as 911 illustrated, Muslim terrorists have a bigger potential. What is really frightening is the threat of biological or nuclear terrorism, and I think the well-funded Islamists are more threatening on that account.

    There is a brewing anti-government, homespun movement though. That is a reality.

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