Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

Toothpicvic said:

No personal sympathy for the dude here. Don't think he should've been arrested for being a bigot, but I might have been arrested for "disturbing the peace" if I went out in public yelling at people (whether it had to do with religion or not).

And of course the fundies will claim that some random asshole getting (possibly) unfairly charged with a crime = "The New World Order". :mrgreen:

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jallman said:

I'm glad you noted. Now note how wrong you are and work to fix it. Be the change you hope for.

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upsideguy said:

Well, this is one area where I find my self on the right side of the political spectrum....

The preacher commenting that homosexuality is a sin does not make him a bigot, it makes him true to the Word. Sorry, but the Bible, which Christians take seriously as the divinely inspired word of God is pretty clear on the subject. If secular politics wish to go another way, they are departing from the Word. Its a very slipperly slope (politically and eternally) to try to suggest that the Church needs to down play their stance on homosexuality in the interest of political correctness.

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I do agree, however, that many Christian zealots are rather obsessed with homosexuality as if it were the only sin (where is the equal outrage on greed and divorce, two areas Christ spoke about, where Christ did not speak on homosexuality specifically) This obsession borders on hate for homosexuals for some Christians and even crosses the line for others. So, hate speech from otherwise good intentioned Christians does exist.

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Cardinal said:

You can't achieve civil rights for all marginalized people at the same time. It's not indicative of any hypocrisy, it's just that it's most likely impossible.

Baby steps.

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Toothpicvic said:

So what about these laws then?

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

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I don't agree. No Christians actually follow the Bible 100% literally anyway. If they did, then Christians would have to kill pretty much anyone who isn't a Christian and live in a fascist theocracy like Muslim Iran. If they want a respectable religion, then they'll have to learn to change with the time, just like they have been doing since the religion began. If they don't then they'll just kill off their own religion because people in this country will see how insane fundamentalism is and flock away from it in droves.

So either way, I guess we're better off.

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DarkWizard12 said:

Actually, if they were following it 100%, all the stuff you listed would STILL not apply because there is no sanhedrien to judge and pass down the sentence.

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Cardinal said:

Well, it's not insane, per se. A homosexual officer arresting a homophobe for running his mouth may be wrong, but it makes sense.

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Toothpicvic said:

So what about these laws then? If he's being 100% true to the Word, then he'd have to teach these too:


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Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)


Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

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I don't agree. No Christians actually follow the Bible 100% literally anyway. If they did, then Christians would have to kill pretty much anyone who isn't a Christian and live in a fascist theocracy like Muslim Iran. If they want a respectable religion, then they'll have to learn to change with the time, just like they have been doing since the religion began. If they don't then they'll just kill off their own religion because people in this country will see how insane fundamentalism is and flock away from it in droves.

So either way, I guess we're better off.

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Goshin said:

Homophobia is an irrational fear of gays.

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Toothpicvic said:

Then why do Christians quote Leviticus when they talk about homosexuality being a sin? They want to have their cake and eat it too.

And yes, I know Paul (in the NT) said that it's a sin, but that's not my point. The point is that Christianity today has conformed to changing times in a lot of ways. So why do they make such a big deal out of being gay?

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Scarecrow Akhbar said:

No, "homophobia" is an imaginary word that's applied to anyone that makes any statement a gay can construe as negative.

A phobia is a recognized psychological condition, such as agoraphobia, claustrophobia, acrophobia, triskadekephobia, etc.

Calling every anti-gay comment "homophobic" is like calling a person who won't stand on the very edge of cliff "acrophobic", even perfectly sensible people won't do that.

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bigot
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1660

: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

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Toothpicvic said:

And yes, I know Paul (in the NT) said that it's a sin, but that's not my point. The point is that Christianity today has conformed to changing times in a lot of ways. So why do they make such a big deal out of being gay?

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1984 said:

Because homosexuality is a sin in Christianity. That's what their belief system dictates. It's sex outside of marriage, first of all, and Paul DID say it was a sin, which would be a confirmation of Leviticus.

I'm not saying I agree with that, as I'm an agnostic, but there is no way around what their belief system dictates.

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winston53660 said:

Not all Christians believe that.

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Goobieman said:

If 'that' is indeed a tenet of Christiantiy, then those who do not 'believe it' are not Christians.

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Goobieman said:

If 'that' is indeed a tenet of Christiantiy, then those who do not 'believe it' are not Christians.

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winston53660 said:

And there are people that would say that about the anti gay crowd, YAWN.

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Goobieman said:

So? How does this negate - or even address - what I said?

Christianity is a set of beliefs and tenets. If you buy into them, you are a Christian, if you do not, you are not.

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This is especially the case if you're looking at specific sects of Christianity, like the Roman Catholic Church - if you do not conform to its tenets and teachings, then you are not a RC.

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winston53660 said:

Not all Christians believe that.

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winston53660 said:

it applies because not every sect has the same beliefs.

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Goobieman said:

If the beliefs they have do not confrom to the tenets and teachings of Christianty, then they arent Christians - so, unless you're prepared to illustrate the Christian position on homosexuality, in full, then you cannot show that it does or does not apply.

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winston53660 said:

Well which sect are we talking about? Yeah the Vatican says homosexuality is a sin where as other sects say it is not.

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There is no consensus within Christianity about: The nature of homosexuality,

What Bible passages mean about homosexuality, or

What policies to enforce about gay and lesbian members, candidates for ordination. commitment rituals or study programs.

The response of Christian faith groups to homosexuality varies greatly, depending mainly upon their position in the liberal - fundamentalist continuum. More liberal denominations and Christians tend to view homosexuality as a civil rights matter; they generally believe it is fixed, unchosen, normal, natural, and morally neutral sexual orientation for a minority of adults. More conservative denominations and Christians tend to view homosexuality as a profound evil; they generally believe it is changeable, chosen, abnormal, unnatural and immoral behavior, regardless of the nature of the relationship.

The more liberal denominations, like the United Church of Christ, have changing their positions on homosexuality, in recent years, to adopt a more inclusive stance.

Mainline denominations such as the Methodists, Presbyterians and Episcopalians are actively debating the question. A future church schism may result., particularly in the case of the Presbyterian Church (USA), and Episcopal Church. USA. Similar splits have occurred in the past over human slavery, whether women should be ordained, and certain theological debates.

More conservative denominations are taking no significant action to change their beliefs and policies at this time.

Fundamentalist denominations commit significant effort against homosexuality and homosexual rights. For example, the Southern Baptist Convention expelled three of their congregations who had conducted a study of homosexuality, had concluded that the denomination's beliefs were invalid, and who welcomed gays and lesbians as members.

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The Anglican Communion has been divided over the issue of homosexuality. The Church of England, the mother church of the Communion, currently maintains (according to the statement Issues in Human Sexuality) that same-sex partnerships are acceptable for laypersons but gay clergy are expected to be abstinent. The Lambeth Conference of 1998 called homosexuality "incompatible with Scripture" but this remains a purely advisory guideline as there are no communion-wide legislative bodies in the Anglican Church. On the other hand, the Episcopal Church, which is the American body (province) of the Anglican Communion, approved (2003) Gene Robinson to be the bishop of the diocese of New Hampshire. Bishop Gene Robinson is the first openly gay (non-celibate) clergy to be ordained to the episcopate (http://www.nhepiscopal.org/BishopSearch/index.htm, http://www.nhepiscopal.org/bishop/bishop.html).

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However, there are a number of Baptist churches, particularly in the American Baptist Churches in the USA and the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, that have more inclusive views. The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, a group of some 50 churches and organizations, is committed to the "full inclusion" of gay and lesbian persons in their churches. This "full inclusion" may or may not include approbation of same-sex sexual conduct.
[edit]

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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints makes clear that same-gender attraction is not sinful and no one should blamed for it, but that a few people have been able to overcome it.[18] However, it considers homoerotic thoughts, feelings and behaviors to be a problem that everyone can and should overcome.[19] Homosexual activity is considered a serious sin on par or greater than other sexual activity outside of a legal, heterosexual marriage.[18] They have encouraged their members to reach out to homosexuals with love and understanding, which has sparked criticism and protests from more conservative churches.[20][21] In 2007, they produced God Loveth His Children, a pamphlet whose stated purpose is to help LGB members.

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The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the largest Lutheran church body in the United States, as of August 21, 2009, voted 559 to 451 in favor of allowing non-celibate gays to become ordained ministers.[4] During the national meeting in 2005,[26] delegates voted against a measure that would have allowed non-celibate gay ordination and the blessing of same-sex unions by 503 against to 490 in favor. ELCA Lutheran policy states that LGBT individuals are welcome and encouraged to become members and participate in the life of the congregation. The ELCA does not have a policy against same-sex unions, nor does it have a rite for blessing those unions, but leaves the question up to pastoral care. ELCA congregations that specifically embrace GLBT persons are called Reconciling in Christ congregations. The group Lutherans Concerned supports the inclusion of LGBT members in Lutheran churches in the ELCA and ELCIC. All other Lutheran churches in the United States oppose ordination and marriage of homosexuals.

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LC-MS), the second largest Lutheran church in the United States at 2.4 million members, does not ordain homosexuals. The LCMS Synodical President Kieschnick officially registered the objections of the LC-MS at the ELCA Churchwide Assembly to this change in the historic position of the Christian church.

In 2006, Lionel Ketola became the first person in a same-sex marriage to be appointed vicar (intern) of an Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada congregation. This occurred at [27] in Newmarket, Ontario. Later that year, the Eastern Synod of the ELCIC voted to allow a "local option" for blessing same-sex unions. The national church, which had previously rejected such a proposal, proceeded to assert that it alone had the authority to make such a decision. The National Church Council agreed in a September ruling, but promised to bring forward another motion authorising the local option for approval at the 2007 National Convention.

Most Lutheran state churches in Germany, Lutheranism's country of origin, are also liberal, viewing homosexuality as moral and allow gay and lesbian clergy. But the Lutheran churches in Germany are also divided on the issue of blessing same-sex unions. In general, very few churches in the more rural parishes (Baden, Saxonia, Hesse-Waldeck) are in favor of blessing same-sex unions while the urban churches do allow them (Hanover, Rhineland, Westfalia, Brunswick, Oldenburg, Berlin-Brandenburg, Bremen, Northelbia...). Nevertheless, all the state churches agree that gay and lesbian individuals are welcome as members, and that any kind of persecution is unacceptable.

The Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Scandinavia, also members of the Lutheran World Federation, are also liberal in their position on homosexuality and view homosexuality as moral. In Sweden (Church of Sweden) the Lutheran church allowed 2006 blessings of same-sex unions and permit gay clergy. A notable bishop is the KG Hammar, former Archbishop of Uppsala and primate of the Church of Sweden, has been very vocal in supporting gay and lesbian Lutherans. In 2009 Eva Brunne, an open lesbian women, was elect as bishop in Stockholm, Church of Sweden. The Church of Norway is divided, with 6 of 11 bishops accepting homosexual practice as moral, even though the church officially rejects it.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland is divided on issue, but many of its most well known bishops have expressed their acceptance for homosexuality. Also some theologians related to church have supported gay-marriages.

The smaller and more conservative denominations of the International Lutheran Council and Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference do not sanction same-sex partnerships among the clergy or laity.

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The Metropolitan Community Church is an international fellowship of Christian congregations. It is considered by many to be a full mainline denomination or communion. There are currently 300 congregations in 22 countries, and the Fellowship has a specific outreach to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender communities. Acceptance of homosexuality is an important part of its theology.

The Metropolitan Community Church was instrumental in the first legal challenges to the heterosexual legal definition of marriage in Ontario (see Same-sex marriage in Ontario). Two couples used an old legal procedure called reading the banns to marry without a licence. When same-sex marriage was legalized in Ontario, their marriages were recognized.[citation needed]

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The Old Catholic Churches in Germany, Switzerland, Austria and the Netherlands view homosexuality as moral, permit gay and lesbian priests, and bless gay couples.[citation needed] These should not be confused with the Roman Catholic Church, nor should one confuse the positions of the Old Roman Catholics (traditional Old Catholics) with those of traditionalist Roman Catholic groups who hold the identical position of the Roman Catholic Church.

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Goobieman said:

Please... continue to exhibit your delusions at your leisure - I, for one, get a kick out of goading you into this sort of self-abusing behavior.

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Goobieman said:

The sect doesnt matter -- something is a tenet of Christianity, or it isnt; f you do not follow the tenets of Christiantiy, you are mot Christian.

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