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Thread: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

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    Re: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    "Second-class status" is a self imposed label. Maybe you should treat yourself with more respect.
    I can respect myself all I like, but it doesn't change the facts on the ground.

    Sorry, but I feel like you're trying to justify yourself instead of actually using any logical argument to back your vote or your concepts.

    Why can't you just admit that you believe on one status for one group of people and a different status for others? If that's not the case, then what's your intention or motivation?

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    Re: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Some sins can't be illegal like lying or gluttony. Lying is illegal in some cases, but not in everyday use. Gluttony cannot be enforced at all. Adultery is a civil crime, not criminal. So no, your argument is baseless.

    We are also a secular government with laws not based on the Bible or sin. So even though Christians can rally against sin and petition for such changes. They cannot (outside of legal channels) change or stop a law or right.
    Are you agreeing with me or not agreeing with me? How is my argument baseless? I'm confused.

    I'm against legislating sin. And thus saying, if you can't legislate simply based on "sin", then how is there a legal justification for banning gay marriage?

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    Re: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Sorry, but I feel like you're trying to justify yourself instead of actually using any logical argument to back your vote or your concepts.
    As long as we're clear that those are you feelings and not accurate interpretations of my argument. Feelings are what they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Why can't you just admit that you believe on one status for one group of people and a different status for others?
    I thought I've been abundantly clear that I support giving privilege to couples raising children

    The heteros raising children should get it, the heteros not raising children should not. The gays raising children should get it, the gays not raising children should not.

    I can't support gays per-se because not all gays are raising children. Even among those who are, I already oppose folks creating step-parents so it follows that I'm going to oppose gays marrying when doing so will create a step-parent.

    The right to marry is not a right of heteros for gays to then be denied.

    The right to marry is a right of anyone who is raising and socializing children, and yes those couples are to be exalted above all other couples and given special privileges. The reason why they should be given such is to support the stability of those couples and the health and success of those children.

    When gay-marriage is about raising and socializing children, then and only then can we turn a blind eye to the benign exception of the rare couple who wish to marry without children being a part of the picture.


    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    If that's not the case, then what's your intention or motivation?
    My intent is to refocus the gay-marriage movement into a Conservative movement so that it becomes a solution to existing problems. My motivation is my childhood and all the crap my parents pout me through.


    ***
    My argument also denies me the right to marry.

    No, I'm not gay, but my argument isn't about gays or any other identity group.

    It's about the purpose of marriage: the raising and socializing of children.

    One might argue that as I have children to raise, that I should remarry so that they grow up in a 2-parent home instead of a single-parent home. Someone could offer a lot of credible data showing that children are better off in 2-parent homes, also.

    But that would be a step-parent dynamic, and that dynamic is the leading cause for divorce among second marriages. My kids are better served by my not marrying. I would support legislation banning anyone with minor children from obtaining a marriage license unless they are marrying the adoptive or bio parent of those children. I would also support legislation defining child abuse to include cohabitation with unrelated adults who are not married to the parent.

    My argument applies to anyone with children. Unless you are marrying the parent of that child/ren, you should remain single until your youngest child turns 18.

    So go ahead and call me a homophobe even-though my argument opposes more hetero marriages than gay marriages. Go ahead and call me a bigot even-though I respect the civil rights of others after the election does not go my way. Go ahead and call me a religious zealot even-though my argument is has no aspect of religion.


    If any given couples does not have children, they should STFU as marriage is not about them or their type of association; it doesn't matter if they're gay, hetero, or other.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-09-10 at 05:54 PM.

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    Re: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Sure, but you have the "right" to commit a lot of sins in this nation. So unless their argument is that everything that is a sin according to the Bible should be illegal, then arguing against gays makes no sense either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Some sins can't be illegal like lying or gluttony. Lying is illegal in some cases, but not in everyday use. Gluttony cannot be enforced at all. Adultery is a civil crime, not criminal. So no, your argument is baseless.

    We are also a secular government with laws not based on the Bible or sin. So even though Christians can rally against sin and petition for such changes. They cannot (outside of legal channels) change or stop a law or right.
    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Are you agreeing with me or not agreeing with me? How is my argument baseless? I'm confused.

    I'm against legislating sin. And thus saying, if you can't legislate simply based on "sin", then how is there a legal justification for banning gay marriage?
    Read it again. I don't want to waist time typing the same thing over again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Read it again. I don't want to waist time typing the same thing over again.
    I have a list of standard issue responses on a thumb drive somewhere....it's for when someone is so way out of line but I'm to disinterested in the predictable conversation to type it all over again.

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    Re: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    As long as we're clear that those are you feelings and not accurate interpretations of my argument. Feelings are what they are.



    I thought I've been abundantly clear that I support giving privilege to couples raising children

    The heteros raising children should get it, the heteros not raising children should not. The gays raising children should get it, the gays not raising children should not.

    I can't support gays per-se because not all gays are raising children. Even among those who are, I already oppose folks creating step-parents so it follows that I'm going to oppose gays marrying when doing so will create a step-parent.

    The right to marry is not a right of heteros for gays to then be denied.

    The right to marry is a right of anyone who is raising and socializing children, and yes those couples are to be exalted above all other couples and given special privileges. The reason why they should be given such is to support the stability of those couples and the health and success of those children.

    When gay-marriage is about raising and socializing children, then and only then can we turn a blind eye to the benign exception of the rare couple who wish to marry without children being a part of the picture.




    My intent is to refocus the gay-marriage movement into a Conservative movement so that it becomes a solution to existing problems. My motivation is my childhood and all the crap my parents pout me through.


    ***
    My argument also denies me the right to marry.

    No, I'm not gay, but my argument isn't about gays or any other identity group.

    It's about the purpose of marriage: the raising and socializing of children.

    One might argue that as I have children to raise, that I should remarry so that they grow up in a 2-parent home instead of a single-parent home. Someone could offer a lot of credible data showing that children are better off in 2-parent homes, also.

    But that would be a step-parent dynamic, and that dynamic is the leading cause for divorce among second marriages. My kids are better served by my not marrying. I would support legislation banning anyone with minor children from obtaining a marriage license unless they are marrying the adoptive or bio parent of those children. I would also support legislation defining child abuse to include cohabitation with unrelated adults who are not married to the parent.

    My argument applies to anyone with children. Unless you are marrying the parent of that child/ren, you should remain single until your youngest child turns 18.

    So go ahead and call me a homophobe even-though my argument opposes more hetero marriages than gay marriages. Go ahead and call me a bigot even-though I respect the civil rights of others after the election does not go my way. Go ahead and call me a religious zealot even-though my argument is has no aspect of religion.


    If any given couples does not have children, they should STFU as marriage is not about them or their type of association; it doesn't matter if they're gay, hetero, or other.
    Okay. Thanks for that. I can actually respect your argument more.

    But I believe then that the first part of the argument has to be removing all benefits of marriage on only bestow benefits on parents.

    If you can make that change, then I'm right there with you.

    But at present, since marriage is bestowed benefits regardless of children; then I argue that simply banning same-sex marriage is a discriminatory act.

    I agree with you, actually, that parents should have higher benefits bestowed upon them; so see - through actually maintaining a calm back and forth, we find out that we're not as far apart as we would have originally perceived; even if we do disagree.

    I just need to know WHY someone is doing something or espousing a belief. If that's expressed (and please don't count on me having read every single thread to know what you might think) and it seems thought out, then that's okay. I can then respect a stance with which I disagree.

    You have to admit, there are many people who are against it with no logic backing it up.

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    Re: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Read it again. I don't want to waist time typing the same thing over again.
    Well, when someone asks you a question or for a clarification, then it means maybe you're not making your point in the clearest way.

    So, I'm sorry to "waist" your time by asking for a clarification.

    Oh, and adultery is still illegal in several states, though rarely (if ever) enforced and likely unconstitutional following Lawrence v. Texas.

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    Re: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Focusing on sins like greed, gluttony, infidelity, lying, and prejudice would likely alienate the flock and decrease donations.
    actually i disagree. I think it would lead to Church Revival; becoming more like unto and more accepting of the World has weakened us and made us less appealing.

    It's always easier to focus on OTHER PEOPLE's "sins." It costs nothing and allows the participants to feel gloriously self-righteous.
    that is true. but like cupcakes and sitting on the couch; that which is easiest in the short term is most damaging in the long.

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    Re: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, it is not a sin any more than heterosexuality is a sin. Both are simply basic urges, and neither are voluntary or matters of choice. Sin itself is a primitive religious concept, but wrongdoing requires evil intent, and intent cannot logically be attributed to something which is involuntary.
    There are heterosexual activities that most Christians also regard as sins.

    Of course, no one actually answered the point I made about homophobia and what makes some a homophobe...
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    Re: Christian preacher arrested for saying homosexuality is a sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Focusing on sins like greed, gluttony, infidelity, lying, and prejudice would likely alienate the flock and decrease donations. It's always easier to focus on OTHER PEOPLE's "sins." It costs nothing and allows the participants to feel gloriously self-righteous.

    I think the church would do well to remember how Christ spoke to the religious hierarchy of his era..."whitewashed tombs full of rot and all uncleanness."
    Actually, the Church DOES speak about those other sins. Have you ever been to Mass and hear a priest's homily?
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