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Thread: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

  1. #51
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, if you think this won't be abused then you're a fool. Also, they should take out the part where the cops can be sued for not enforcing this. That or the cops should start pestering all the white people too...just to make sure. That guy could be Irish, French, English, Russian, German, etc. Once enough white people are bothered by the law, it will change.
    No offense to you but I think this is just silly. First of all, we have to weigh resources and practicality versus the value of not hurting anyone's feelings. It's not like we have a massive Irish, French, English, Russian, German illegal immigration problem. We have a massive illegal Mexican immigration problem. More accurately, a massive illegal latino immigration problem. We don't have resources to ferret out the occasional german or Irishman. The goal is to move out as many illegals as possible with as few resources as possible. And with illegal mexicans, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Plus, legal immigrants should be willing to assist otherwise we might want to rethink their immigrant status, too.

    Don't bother calling me racist, it's not going to have any effect. (that was directed to the thread in general, not you specifically, Ikari).

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No offense to you but I think this is just silly. First of all, we have to weigh resources and practicality versus the value of not hurting anyone's feelings. It's not like we have a massive Irish, French, English, Russian, German illegal immigration problem. We have a massive illegal Mexican immigration problem. More accurately, a massive illegal latino immigration problem. We don't have resources to ferret out the occasional german or Irishman. The goal is to move out as many illegals as possible with as few resources as possible. And with illegal mexicans, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Plus, legal immigrants should be willing to assist otherwise we might want to rethink their immigrant status, too.

    Don't bother calling me racist, it's not going to have any effect. (that was directed to the thread in general, not you specifically, Ikari).
    Perhaps we should just throw out the law and let anarchy rule, every man for himself. If we ignore immigration laws, then why should we obey any other written law. It is apparent that those you oppose this bill think that they are above the law, but rest assure those who abide by our laws do not qualify.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Well, I'm stuck in an American frame of mind. Here, we are a melting pot. No matter of WHERE your ancestors came from, once you're American, you're American. If an individual sneaks under the border wire from Mexico, unless they just passed thrugh on their way from Central America, they're Mexican to me. Don't care if they're indians, white as snow, or whatever. To me, Mexican is a nationality, not a race. It is inclusive of ALL citizens in it's nation domain.
    Well, I'm not going to bring up the snobbery (not yours), of using a term applied to two continents to refer to a single country, a practice resented in numerous other countries that are as "American" or more so, considering that the word came from the name of an Italian explorer that reached Brazil.

    People always start lecturing me about the fact that America's colonizers aren't leaving, and European heritage and ancestry is here to stay. That's fine, for the most part! I'm just pushing for a paradigm shift in that I dislike people screaming about "rights" of absolute national sovereignty over territory that was stolen by the governments of Britain, Spain, Mexico, the United States, etc. When we go down that route (and I really don't want to, again), I can't help laughing at the descendants of the European interlopers who practiced genocide and ethnic cleansing attempting to label Indians "foreigners" and "aliens."

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    My favorite part of this bill is that Arizona was actually once Mexico; and that a large percentage of Mexicans can trace their ancestry on this continent back centuries further than most Caucasian-Americans.

    Illegal immigration is a problem; I fully recognize that.

    But Arizona is nearly 1/3 Hispanic. So the cops are supposed to stop 1/3 of the population and ask them for their papers?

    If we're to believe that it's reasonable to suspect Hispanics of being potentially illegal; then how do you prevent all of the Hispanics (many of whom have ancestry in the state that can be traced back to even before Arizona was American territory) from being harassed for their papers?

    What about Hispanic cops? Should they all be stopped and checked?

    I know that those of you who defend this law will say that's silly, but how do you define the police officer's initial interaction being "legal". Technically, "Howdy" would be legal interaction. He or She is now required to ask said person to show their papers showing they're legal citizens or immigrants if they then suspect the person to be illegal.

    You can't conceivably enact this law without it leading to racial profiling. It's simply not possible.

    But, I have to thank the Arizona legislature for preventing those human-animal hybrids. God knows, Arizona was the breeding ground for ManBearPigs.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    My favorite part of this bill is that Arizona was actually once Mexico; and that a large percentage of Mexicans can trace their ancestry on this continent back centuries further than most Caucasian-Americans.

    Illegal immigration is a problem; I fully recognize that.

    But Arizona is nearly 1/3 Hispanic.
    Are you trying to say that all Hispanics are illegals or support illegal immigration?


    So the cops are supposed to stop 1/3 of the population and ask them for their papers?



    If we're to believe that it's reasonable to suspect Hispanics of being potentially illegal; then how do you prevent all of the Hispanics (many of whom have ancestry in the state that can be traced back to even before Arizona was American territory) from being harassed for their papers?

    What about Hispanic cops? Should they all be stopped and checked?
    The bill does not say they can randomly stop people to check there immigration status. Law Police contact must first be made before they can even question your legal status. In others you would first have to be stopped at a DUI check point, pulled over for some traffic offense or some other form of lawful police contact.


    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
    B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
    21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
    22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
    23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
    24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
    25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
    26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).


    I know that those of you who defend this law will say that's silly,
    I wouldn't say its silly on your part I would say its a damn lie to make false claims of racial profiling.

    but how do you define the police officer's initial interaction being "legal"
    Getting pulled over for a traffic offense, you match a suspect's description, DUI road block check and etc.

    Technically, "Howdy" would be legal interaction.



    No it isn't

    He or She is now required to ask said person to show their papers showing they're legal citizens or immigrants if they then suspect the person to be illegal.
    ONly if they have been stopped for some other reason.
    You can't conceivably enact this law without it leading to racial profiling. It's simply not possible.
    Yes you can. There is no racial profiling in the bill, nor does the bill create racial profiling.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 05-06-10 at 03:41 AM.
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Are you trying to say that all Hispanics are illegals or support illegal immigration?




    The bill does not say they can randomly stop people to check there immigration status. Law Police contact must first be made before they can even question your legal status. In others you would first have to be stopped at a DUI check point, pulled over for some traffic offense or some other form of lawful police contact.


    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
    B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
    21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
    22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
    23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
    24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
    25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
    26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).




    I wouldn't say its silly on your part I would say its a damn lie to make false claims of racial profiling.



    Getting pulled over for a traffic offense, you match a suspect's description, DUI road block check and etc.






    No it isn't

    ONly if they have been stopped for some other reason.


    Yes you can. There is no racial profiling in the bill, nor does the bill create racial profiling.
    The bill merely says that the initial interaction must be legal. So any interaction is "legal" that isn't "I contacted the suspect because they had brown skin".

    This bill is overboard. It's not addressing the issue at all. It's a distraction from upholding the law.

    I've already said that I think illegal immigration is an issue; I just think this is a solution full of more problems than the initial problem its self.

    As far as I know, it's already cost the party a couple of voters. My friend who is a lifelong Republican with a Latina wife and, as such, a half-Latina daughter, has said he won't support the party until the law is changed to make sure legal Hispanic citizens are treated fairly.

    There's no doubt that this law would have negative impact upon legal American citizens of Hispanic origin. To ignore that fact is to ignore the needs of your fellow Americans who happen to look different from yourself.

    I can think of two nations in history where "Your papers please" were the big statement. Those were Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

    What if they discover an illegal Irish immigrant? I'll grant you that's more likely in New York than in Arizona, but if there's one, wouldn't all people of Irish descent be suspect?

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    What about Hispanic cops? Should they all be stopped and checked?
    Why do you assume Arizona hasn't already done the usual background screenings on it's police force during the interview/hiring process?

    It's like a game of make-believe and so many who are opposed to this law are playing it. Ie. let's imagine the most ridiculous, worst things possible and then act as if they'll really happen. ie. What if Hispanic cops had to pull themselves over? harharhar
    It's ridiculous.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    My emphasis.

    Seems like an improvement; but, is it enough?
    Yeah, I think it's fine and should be left as-is.
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    Why do you assume Arizona hasn't already done the usual background screenings on it's police force during the interview/hiring process?

    It's like a game of make-believe and so many who are opposed to this law are playing it. Ie. let's imagine the most ridiculous, worst things possible and then act as if they'll really happen. ie. What if Hispanic cops had to pull themselves over? harharhar
    It's ridiculous.
    Well of course that's pushing it to its limits; but that was the point.

    But, if you have a tail light out, should you suddenly face arrest if you forgot your wallet?

    And let's face it; only an Hispanic person would suffer that fate. A Hispanic person who has forgotten their wallet or lost their ID would be considered arrest-worthy (until such time they can prove their identity).

    This law is draconian and it is NOT what you guys are making it out to be.

    If it were a simple law it would simply say, Arizona police should check immigration status as part of arrest procedures.

    There - that's done. It doesn't put one group at greater risk than another. It doesn't force people to "show their papers" at any cop's whimsy. It says, if you commit a crime, additionally, your legal status will be checked. Which is NOT what the Arizona law currently says. It merely states that the initial contact by the officer must be "legal". And it requires him or her to check the status of anyone they "reasonably suspect" of being illegal.

    That's vague and it can and will lead to draconian measures that will singularly be pointed at 1/3 of the Arizona population.

    And it took me about five seconds to write a law that avoids all the controversy.

    Then again, these Arizonans are thankfully protecting us from teachers with accents and human-animal hybrids.

    I swear, there's a really big gas leak out there or something has gotten into the water supply.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Cochise View Post
    Well, I'm not going to bring up the snobbery (not yours), of using a term applied to two continents to refer to a single country, a practice resented in numerous other countries that are as "American" or more so, considering that the word came from the name of an Italian explorer that reached Brazil.

    People always start lecturing me about the fact that America's colonizers aren't leaving, and European heritage and ancestry is here to stay. That's fine, for the most part! I'm just pushing for a paradigm shift in that I dislike people screaming about "rights" of absolute national sovereignty over territory that was stolen by the governments of Britain, Spain, Mexico, the United States, etc. When we go down that route (and I really don't want to, again), I can't help laughing at the descendants of the European interlopers who practiced genocide and ethnic cleansing attempting to label Indians "foreigners" and "aliens."
    Feel free to try and steal it back...... good luck with that.
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