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Thread: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Or lets just give all people of color a yellow star or pink triangle that they can wear after its been verified that they have their papers....then they can be easily identified.
    Except that this isn't about "people of color"; it's about criminals. Justice is blind to color...why aren't you?

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    I don't need to google Godwin's Law. I know well what it is.

    And if you've read through this, I've already proposed a law worded in a way that would let Arizona feel like it's doing something without causing all the furor.

    All they'd have to say is, "If an officer is already in the act of arrest or issuing a citation, the officer must ask for proof of citizenship."
    Then, you've not pointed out one specific group of citizens, nor have you made it possible for an officer to stop anyone he "reasonably suspects" of being in the state illegally. They wouldn't have taken the economic hit.

    Instead, they've just rallied around it.

    I've already stated that I believe illegal immigration is a problem; but the solution isn't in making life more difficult for the 1/3 of your citizens who happen to look just like the ones there illegally.

    This is, in effect, what it says. The words might be different, but the meaning is the same. Or are you saying that an officer should not ask for ID unless thay are being arrested?

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Who gives a **** what the ass holes in the big liberal cities want..... they aren't the ones that are getting shot on their own land by the invaders.

    They also don't seem to have the votes to stop it.
    Northeast Arizona doesn't contain "big liberal cities," but does contain quite a few people who can say a thing or two about their ancestors being shot on their own land by the invaders. That's why I can only laugh at the audacity of Europeans calling any Indians "invaders."

    Legislation in the statehouse doesn't touch the population here, whatever it may "theoretically" do. The residents here are reddish brown skinned Indians often in possession of Spanish surnames, who are less focused on government-issued ID than most people because of their more limited applications. And people simply don't think in terms of cost-benefit analysis, so all it takes is the mistaken deportation of one Navajo to raise a massive furor.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    This is, in effect, what it says. The words might be different, but the meaning is the same. Or are you saying that an officer should not ask for ID unless thay are being arrested?
    Despite them saying "that's what it says", what is says is "legal contact".

    "Legal contact" can include "incidental contact". That means "hello" can be enough to arouse suspicion.

    I'm sorry but I have a problem with that. That can wrap way too many legal citizens and immigrants into the net.

    I would think that those who want to protect liberty and freedom would worry about such things.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Except that this isn't about "people of color"; it's about criminals. Justice is blind to color...why aren't you?
    Actually Jall...it isn't. That is the main problem with this type of law.
    Do you really believe that a blonde hair/blue eye is going to be suspect in Arizona of being Canadian and subjected to being stopped, detained, searched etc?
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Actually Jall...it isn't. That is the main problem with this type of law.
    Do you really believe that a blonde hair/blue eye is going to be suspect in Arizona of being Canadian and subjected to being stopped, detained, searched etc?
    It depends. First LE is not just going to stopping people. If they have a reason to stop someone and they have a reason to believe that that person is in the US illegally, then they can check status. So yes, if a blond hair / blue eye person met the conditions, I would expect them to be asked/checked on thier status. Would it not be a factor if it is known that thousands of them are crossing the border from Canada illegally each day.

    Do you fail to understand that LE has to have a reason to contact the person first. And even then they may not check the persons status.

    If you witness a crime, better not describe the persons skin, hair, eye color. Wouldn't you be setting up the innocent people to be by racial profile
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Except that this isn't about "people of color"; it's about criminals. Justice is blind to color...why aren't you?
    This law was definitely made against a specific ethnicity though, you can't deny that. How many white people will be stopped and questioned? Doubtful many at all. Justice may be "blind", but the government and the law is not.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    I ran across an article the other day that referenced a dissent by Judge Jacques Wiener of the US Court of Appeals for the 5Th Circuit in the case of USA v. Eugenio Zapata-Ibarra in 2000. What he was talking about was the enormity of leeway the courts gave to law enforcement as justifiable suspicion. He footnoted actual cases in which these reasons for 'suspicions' were perfectly acceptable.

    And I certainly do not write in criticism of the DEA, the Customs Service, or the Border Patrol in general or this case's individual agent in particular: Quite to the contrary, I am embarrassed that the federal courts have forced the dedicated, at-risk officers of these agencies to engage in the charade of "articulating facts" just so that we can point to something as the underpinnings of our retrospective findings of "reasonable suspicion" when we uphold vehicle stops that otherwise offend the Fourth Amendment. It is we, not law enforcement, who have constructed the straw man of articulatable facts and we who then accept as justifiable suspicion virtually anything and everything thus articulated:


    The vehicle was suspiciously dirty and muddy, or the vehicle was suspiciously squeaky-clean;
    The driver was suspiciously dirty, shabbily dressed and unkept, or the driver was too clean;
    The vehicle was suspiciously traveling fast, or was traveling suspiciously slow (or even was traveling suspiciously at precisely the legal speed limit);
    The [old car, new car, big car, station wagon, camper, oilfield service truck, SUV, van] is the kind of vehicle typically used for smuggling aliens or drugs;
    The driver would not make eye contact with the agent, or the driver made eye contact too readily;
    The driver appeared nervous (or the driver even appeared too cool, calm, and collected);
    The time of day [early morning, mid-morning, late afternoon, early evening, late evening, middle of the night] is when "they" tend to smuggle contraband or aliens;
    The vehicle was riding suspiciously low (overloaded), or suspiciously high (equipped with heavy duty shocks and springs);
    The passengers were slumped suspiciously in their seats, presumably to avoid detection, or the passengers were sitting suspiciously ramrod-erect;
    The vehicle suspiciously slowed when being overtaken by the patrol car traveling at a high rate of speed with its high-beam lights on, or the vehicle suspiciously maintained its same speed and direction despite being overtaken by a patrol car traveling at a high speed with its high-beam lights on;
    and on and on ad nauseam.

    223 F.3d 281
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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Actually Jall...it isn't. That is the main problem with this type of law.
    Do you really believe that a blonde hair/blue eye is going to be suspect in Arizona of being Canadian and subjected to being stopped, detained, searched etc?
    No one is going to be just stopped because the officer is bored. If you can't show some ID, then it is automatically suspicious. If the blond haired/blue eyed canadian can't show ID, then check his status, too.

    This isn't about "people of color". It's about criminals.

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    Re: Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No one is going to be just stopped because the officer is bored. If you can't show some ID, then it is automatically suspicious. If the blond haired/blue eyed canadian can't show ID, then check his status, too.

    This isn't about "people of color". It's about criminals.
    Perhaps in an ideal world you are correct. However, in application it isn't the case.
    I will say that Arizona did take a step in the right direction when they modified the law. It still isn't a good law though and there are better ways at addressing the immigration issue, however, politicians don't want to REALLY address the problem, they prefer these feel-good soundbite laws.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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