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Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

Deuce said:
The difference is that speeding or a bad lane change can't get me brought down to the station and detained. If I get pulled over for speeding in Arizona five minutes from now I could be detained while my citizenship is proven, because my passport is in my desk drawer rather than in my pocket.
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Your drivers' license doesn't prove that you're a citizen? ;)
 
Grim17 said:
Would you please stop lying your ass off and READ THE GD LAW!

There are 4 forms of ID that are considered legal, and having your passport on you (if you are an American citizen) isn't one of them. If you have a drivers license, then you are assumed to be in the country legally. If you are not an American citizen, then you are required by FEDERAL LAW to have either your passport on you, or your green card.


DO YOU UNDERSTAND?


.
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Just note that I'm not contesting what you're saying, just trying to get more informed. What happens if I get ticketed for jaywalking? Say I'm a citizen, I have no ID, but I don't speak any English. What then?
 
phattonez said:
Just note that I'm not contesting what you're saying, just trying to get more informed. What happens if I get ticketed for jaywalking? Say I'm a citizen, I have no ID, but I don't speak any English. What then?
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If you don't have a state issued ID card, they check you out through ICE.
 
phattonez said:
Just note that I'm not contesting what you're saying, just trying to get more informed. What happens if I get ticketed for jaywalking? Say I'm a citizen, I have no ID, but I don't speak any English. What then?
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Perfect scenario for being further questioned about your immigration and legal status.
 
Gill said:
If you don't have a state issued ID card, they check you out through ICE.
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So where would I go in the meantime while they're checking this?
 
Grim17 said:
Would you please stop lying your ass off and READ THE GD LAW!

There are 4 forms of ID that are considered legal, and having your passport on you (if you are an American citizen) isn't one of them. If you have a drivers license, then you are assumed to be in the country legally. If you are not an American citizen, then you are required by FEDERAL LAW to have either your passport on you, or your green card.


DO YOU UNDERSTAND?


.
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An Arizona driver's license is considered proof of being in the country legally. I do not possess an Arizona driver's license. They also mention "government issued ID, if that agency requires proof of legal status," but not all states require a social security number to get a license, and I doubt the officers will memorize a list of which documents fit that requirement.
 
Deuce said:
An Arizona driver's license is considered proof of being in the country legally. I do not possess an Arizona driver's license. They also mention "government issued ID, if that agency requires proof of legal status," but not all states require a social security number to get a license, and I doubt the officers will memorize a list of which documents fit that requirement.
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I'm not aware of any states that let you have a drivers' license unless you are in this country legally, or is that not correct?
 
phattonez said:
Just note that I'm not contesting what you're saying, just trying to get more informed. What happens if I get ticketed for jaywalking? Say I'm a citizen, I have no ID, but I don't speak any English. What then?
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You're probably going to the police station. But I have news for you. You still would have been going to the police station a week ago too. It's the law in Arizona that a person must carry ID with them in public. If you don't speak English, and the police officer doesn't speak your language, there's no way he can verify who you are. Can't write you a ticket if they don't know who you are.

If that example isn't probable cause, then I don't know what is.
 
Grim17 said:
Can't write you a ticket if they don't know who you are.

If that example isn't probable cause, then I don't know what is.
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I think that clears up the issue for me.

So, is the problem with most people this idea of legal interaction? I mean, do police have to catch you doing something, or can they just walk up and ask you for proof? From what I've seen, it's not the latter.
 
Deuce said:
An Arizona driver's license is considered proof of being in the country legally. I do not possess an Arizona driver's license. They also mention "government issued ID, if that agency requires proof of legal status," but not all states require a social security number to get a license, and I doubt the officers will memorize a list of which documents fit that requirement.
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I recommend that a paranoid liberal like yourself, stay the hell out of Arizona.

Do us all a favor and stop wasting everyones time with your phony scenarios. Just state that you are a liberal, and are marching lock step with the current regime, so you will oppose this law even if a gun were put to your head.

p.s. I hear police have these new fangled devises called "computers" in their cars.
 
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Grim17 said:
I recommend that a paranoid liberal like yourself, stay the hell out of Arizona.

Do us all a favor and stop wasting everyones time with your phony scenarios. Just state that you are a liberal, and are marching lock step with the current regime, so you will oppose this law even if a gun were put to your head.
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Errr, I'm sorry but you're just wrong. The scenario is possible. Ten states do not require proof of citizenship or legal status to get a driver's license: Hawaii, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oregon, Wisconsin and Utah. Tennessee issues special certificates to people who cannot prove they are legal residents.

People with a license from these states cannot present it as proof of being in the country legally, according to this very law you're quoting.
 
phattonez said:
I think that clears up the issue for me.

So, is the problem with most people this idea of legal interaction? I mean, do police have to catch you doing something, or can they just walk up and ask you for proof? From what I've seen, it's not the latter.
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Correct, they can not just walk up to you and ask you to prove you are legally in the country. They can only do that if they stopped you for another legal reason.
 
New Mexico? Really? That's very surprising.
 
Deuce said:
Errr, I'm sorry but you're just wrong. The scenario is possible. Ten states do not require proof of citizenship or legal status to get a driver's license: Hawaii, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oregon, Wisconsin and Utah. Tennessee issues special certificates to people who cannot prove they are legal residents.

People with a license from these states cannot present it as proof of being in the country legally, according to this very law you're quoting.
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Then people from those states either need to get their laws changed or carry birth certificates with them if they go to AZ.
 
Grim17 said:
Correct, they can not just walk up to you and ask you to prove you are legally in the country. They can only do that if they stopped you for another legal reason.
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Can they see you on the corner as a day laborer, jaywalking in urban areas, looking hispanic and ask you for proof of residency?
 
Gill said:
Then people from those states either need to get their laws changed or carry birth certificates with them if they go to AZ.
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So you're admitting now that I'm correct. A legal citizen could be taken into custody for not having his birth certificate/passport/SS card/whatever.

That's all I have to say. I oppose this bill for that reason. :2wave:
 
Deuce said:
Errr, I'm sorry but you're just wrong. The scenario is possible. Ten states do not require proof of citizenship or legal status to get a driver's license: Hawaii, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oregon, Wisconsin and Utah. Tennessee issues special certificates to people who cannot prove they are legal residents.

People with a license from these states cannot present it as proof of being in the country legally, according to this very law you're quoting.
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Dude, give it up.

The law is not to hassle people, it's to help stop the influx of illegal aliens from being in the state of Arizona. The police have computers in their cars, and can check you out right there, even if you don't have ID. If that isn't good enough for you, then move to San Francisco and have a love-in with your people.
 
Deuce said:
So you're admitting now that I'm correct. A legal citizen could be taken into custody for not having his birth certificate/passport/SS card/whatever.

That's all I have to say. I oppose this bill for that reason. :2wave:
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I never said differently. But it depends on your definition of "custody". They are held until they can be checked out through ICE.

People have always been taken into custody with no charges filed against them.

Do you object to the Border Patrol or ICE being able to do the same thing ??
 
Grim17 said:
Dude, give it up.

The law is not to hassle people, it's to help stop the influx of illegal aliens from being in the state of Arizona. The police have computers in their cars, and can check you out right there, even if you don't have ID. If that isn't good enough for you, then move to San Francisco and have a love-in with your people.
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What do you need for them to find your legal residency on those computers?
 
phattonez said:
Lol, never, they're so boring to me.
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Well if you did you would know this happens all the time. If the people give a fake name and the cops find out, they are immediately arrested.
 
Congratulations to Arizona for taking an active and positive initiative to the illegal immigration plaguing our nation.

“Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
Imposed“.

Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324 (a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)
State and local law enforcement officials have the general power to investigate and arrest violators of federal immigration statutes without prior INS knowledge or approval, as long as they are authorized to do so by state law. There is no extant federal limitation on this authority. The 1996 immigration control legislation passed by Congress was intended to encourage states and local agencies to participate in the process of enforcing federal immigration laws. Immigration officers and local law enforcement officers may detain an individual for a brief warrantless interrogation where circumstances create a reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally present in the U.S. Specific facts constituting a reasonable suspicion include evasive, nervous, or erratic behavior; dress or speech indicating foreign citizenship; and presence in an area known to contain a concentration of illegal aliens. Hispanic appearance alone is not sufficient. Immigration officers and police must have a valid warrant or valid employer's consent to enter workplaces or residences. Any vehicle used to transport or harbor illegal aliens, or used as a substantial part of an activity that encourages illegal aliens to come to or reside in the U.S. may be seized by an immigration officer and is subject to forfeiture. The forfeiture power covers any conveyances used within the U.S.

The expanded section here.
Aiding, abetting, harboring, encouraging illegals a felony

Arizona’s Law basically mirrors Federal Law. To comply with the Federal provision within the above section, “as long as they are authorized to do so by state law“, it became necessary for Arizona to pass a law making it “illegal” to be an “illegal alien” within the State boundaries/borders.

Arizona has some pre-trained officers through a program with ICE labeled “A Law Enforcement Partnership”, enacted September 30, 1996. Delegation of Immigration Authority Section 287(g) Immigration and Nationality Act………. dealing with the DHS/ICE agreement with states. Partners

In the absence of a specific federal statute, the validity of an arrest without a warrant for violation of federal law by local peace officers is to be determined by reference to local law. See Miller v. United States, 357 U.S. 301, 305 (1958); United States v. Di Re, 332 U.S. 581, 589 (1948).

In approving a state trooper's arrest of persons who appeared to be illegal aliens, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit held, simply, as follows: "A state trooper has general investigative authority to inquire into possible immigration violations. "United States v. Salinas-Calderon, 728 F.2d 1298, 1301, n. 3 (10th Cir. 1984).

People v. Barajas 1978

United States v. Vasquez-Alvarez 1999

United States v. Santana-Garcia 2001
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Given that is how day labour is typically hired by indpendant contractors, it sort of makes day labour as typically practiced illegal

Notice how it does not say anything about illegal immigrants in this section
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All this says is that you cannot stop in the street to pick up labors. Go into the parking lot then.
Jees what a hassle this must be now, we have to pull off of the actual roadway and onto private property.
Better call the ACLU, they are trampling our rights.:mrgreen:
 
Deuce said:
The difference is that speeding or a bad lane change can't get me brought down to the station and detained. If I get pulled over for speeding in Arizona five minutes from now I could be detained while my citizenship is proven, because my passport is in my desk drawer rather than in my pocket.

If I get pulled over for speeding in Minnesota, I'm getting a ticket and that's the end of it. Speeding is against the law, but having my passport in my dresser is not. My problem is that in Arizona, I can be detained for something that isn't a crime.
Is that really so hard to understand, folks?
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It is a crime for legal immigrants to not carry ID.
 
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