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Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

UtahBill said:
Uh, did you not know that being an illegal immigrant makes you a criminal?
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It does make you a criminal if you are an illegal immigrant

But what gives the police probable cause to believe you are an illegal immigrant

It is not like it is writen your forehead, a legal US citizen walking down the street pretty much looks like an illegal immigrant walking down the street. So what is going to give the police probable cause to ask that person for his/her ID?
 
UtahBill said:
Uh, did you not know that being an illegal immigrant makes you a criminal?
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Yes, but LOOKING like one when you aren't - being either a legal immigrant or full citizen - is the thing raising concerns, that and the fact that any bad cops [as opposed to the cool, legitimate, hardworking and honest cops] out there will abuse this in a matter of time. Probable cause ought to be something whose definition remains unperverted.
 
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Lord Tammerlain said:
It does make you a criminal if you are an illegal immigrant

But what gives the police probable cause to believe you are an illegal immigrant

It is not like it is writen your forehead, a legal US citizen walking down the street pretty much looks like an illegal immigrant walking down the street. So what is going to give the police probable cause to ask that person for his/her ID?
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Got links to events like you describe? People walking down the street as innocent as newborn babes and the cops hauled demanded ID?
Ever watch the show COPS? Occasionally they catch someone without ID, but they weren't just walking down the street. They were in a stolen car, more often than not....
I am 64, and have been asked for ID twice, not counting being stopped for a traffic violation.
Should I sue the govt?
 
zimmer said:
The bill is a winner on many levels.

1. It sends a message across the nation. DC is useless, states, do it on your own.

2. It puts Obama in the open. Americans didn't want the last illegals bill, and they like this move. Obama shovels another few for his grave if he takes this on. Hope he does.

3. It exposes the left and RINOs. May this be an added straw to help us get rid of both.

4. It makes illegals feel unwelcome. As it should be.

5. It might trigger other states to crack down too. The ice is broken.

.
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It is too bad that I was afraid this issue would be a partisan pee contest but I think that there some great provisions in this bill and these paragraphs are an example:

Knowingly employing unauthorized aliens; prohibition;
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false and frivolous complaints; violation;
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classification; license suspension and revocation;
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affirmative defense
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A. An employer shall not knowingly employ an unauthorized alien. If,
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in the case when an employer uses a contract, subcontract or other
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independent contractor agreement to obtain the labor of an alien in this
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state, the employer knowingly contracts with an unauthorized alien or with a
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person who employs or contracts with an unauthorized alien to perform the
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labor, the employer violates this subsection
 
Travelsonic said:
Yes, but LOOKING like one when you aren't - being either a legal immigrant or full citizen - is the issue.
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I know the issue, and if you check with hispanics in Arizona, people who were born in the USA, most of them will agree with this bill. Illegals take THEIR jobs, too...and illegals commit crimes against them as much as whites.

Of all the hispanics I ever worked with, most want the border secured. They pay taxes, too.

I wonder why we don't have this issue with canadians? ..maybe Mexico should work on the problems they have instead of exporting them to the USA...
 
UtahBill said:
Got links to events like you describe? People walking down the street as innocent as newborn babes and the cops hauled demanded ID?
Ever watch the show COPS? Occasionally they catch someone without ID, but they weren't just walking down the street. They were in a stolen car, more often than not....
I am 64, and have been asked for ID twice, not counting being stopped for a traffic violation.
Should I sue the govt?
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And if you are caught in the middle of committing a crime you typically are forced to id yourself. Any one is. Which makes this part of the law irrelevant unless it is going to be used to check on the status of otherwise law abiding individuals

Anyone in a stolen car is going to have to produce ID or at least identify themselves, which the police would check, anyone robbing a bank will as well. Meaning the entire point of allowing the police to check the ID of people if the have probable cause of that person being an illegal immigrant rather meaningless in such cases. The only reason to have that part of the law is too allow the police to check the ID of people who look like illegal immigrants
 
A big question is, what provisions are there aside from blind faith to prevent those with intent of abusing their authority - and completely botching the term "Probable Cause" for their own purposes - from doing so?
 
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Lord Tammerlain said:
If Arizona wants to do this they should put up check points and check the citizenship of each and every person they stop, be they caucasian, hispanic, asian or african. Lets see how many Arizona residents woudl then support this law
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That sounds exactly like the way they catch drunk drivers in Georgia, for the past several months police have been randomly putting up check points and pulling everyone over and finding drunks, people without insurance, or unregistered vehicles. It has been a very successful operation. The roads are safer since they have been doing this.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
It does make you a criminal if you are an illegal immigrant

But what gives the police probable cause to believe you are an illegal immigrant

It is not like it is writen your forehead, a legal US citizen walking down the street pretty much looks like an illegal immigrant walking down the street. So what is going to give the police probable cause to ask that person for his/her ID?
Click to expand...

IMO they police won't be doing this. The status check would come after being stopped for some other reason. For example: If they stop a person for traffic violation, investigating a crime, responding to a call, and stop a person. at that time they may ask for identification. If the person does not have a drivers license, valid id, does something that makes the office suspect the person is not a legal resident, the officer could at that time have the persons status checked.

IMO, the idea of the police doing nothing more than sweeps is the oppositions spin. I have yet to see the critics come up with an alternative to solving the illegal issue other than make them all legal. This in itself does not address the issue of the unprotected border. The feds need to close/control the borders and manage "legal" immigration. Having almost 1/2 million illegals in Arizona is not acceptable.
The Feds have failed and ignored the issue for way to many years. Both Republicans and Democrats.
 
UtahBill said:
I know the issue, and if you check with hispanics in Arizona, people who were born in the USA, most of them will agree with this bill. Illegals take THEIR jobs, too...and illegals commit crimes against them as much as whites.

Of all the hispanics I ever worked with, most want the border secured. They pay taxes, too.

I wonder why we don't have this issue with canadians? ..maybe Mexico should work on the problems they have instead of exporting them to the USA...
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You ask "I wonder why we don't have this issue with canadians? " As a person who lives in the Northeast within a few driving hours of the Canadian border I can tell you that the reason we do not have a bad illegal alien problem with Canada is because the Canadian economy is not that much worse than ours. I know that the small city that I grew up in we had the "Canucks " as people called them come down here to work. The part of the city that I lived in for a while was a French - Canadian ghetto call "Frog Hollow” (named for frogs not CANUCKS) and I knew Canadians cam here claiming that they were visiting their relatives but they were working here and taking jobs from Americans. Of course our “Canuck” problem was no where as bad as the Mexican or Latin American problem.

Now if the police wanted to stop the "canucks" back then you could not really tell that you stopped a "canuck" unless they were driving their Quebec registered car or holding a hockey stick. The only sure fire way was to make then talk and listen to the accent. ;);)
 
UtahBill said:
Your country club?
I have always voted GOP, but when this last election cycle started I was saying that the DEMS would win. Their are millions of middle class folk who usually vote republican, but they got tired of seeing crooks and perverts betray the public trust , too many of which are republicans. When their retirement funds take a hit and the financiers are still enriching themselves at the expense of the common folk, they remember who took their side and who sided with the obscenely rich.
Wealth is fine, for those who earn it. But we have had too many people steal it....
ETHICS, look it up....
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what does that have to do with belong to a club? MOst of the crooks these days are dems-Bernie M for example. The uber rich tend to be dems. They control the government and the government is bigger when the dems win. In other words, dems expand the power that they control
 
mike2810 said:
IMO they police won't be doing this. The status check would come after being stopped for some other reason. For example: If they stop a person for traffic violation, investigating a crime, responding to a call, and stop a person. at that time they may ask for identification. If the person does not have a drivers license, valid id, does something that makes the office suspect the person is not a legal resident, the officer could at that time have the persons status checked.
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I would expect the police to check out a persons ID when they are stopped for those issues. A fake ID would of course (or should pop up) during that course of action. Which bring up the entire point of having the police being allowed to check a persons ID if they have probable cause to believe the person is an illegal immigrant. If they had probable cause to stop a person for another crime, they would be allowed to check the person's ID at that time. This part of the law is rather superfluous in such a case is it not?

IMO, the idea of the police doing nothing more than sweeps is the oppositions spin. I have yet to see the critics come up with an alternative to solving the illegal issue other than make them all legal. This in itself does not address the issue of the unprotected border. The feds need to close/control the borders and manage "legal" immigration. Having almost 1/2 million illegals in Arizona is not acceptable.
The Feds have failed and ignored the issue for way to many years. Both Republicans and Democrats.
Click to expand...
 
UtahBill said:
I know the issue, and if you check with hispanics in Arizona, people who were born in the USA, most of them will agree with this bill. Illegals take THEIR jobs, too...and illegals commit crimes against them as much as whites.

Of all the hispanics I ever worked with, most want the border secured. They pay taxes, too.

I wonder why we don't have this issue with canadians? ..maybe Mexico should work on the problems they have instead of exporting them to the USA...
Click to expand...

Not being from the Southwest I am curious as why you assume that all Hispanics are non White? Quote from your post “and illegals commit crimes against them as much as whites “. Here in the Northeast we have “Hispanics” and Latins who come in all colors – White, tan, brown, and Black, and all hues in between all except maybe stripped ones which I have not seen one yet.

Just saw an interview on CNN and a Chief Joe Martinez was saying "
Police Chief Joe Martinez called critics' concerns unfounded, saying the Arizona law enforcement community includes a large number of Hispanics.
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Now Joe has a Hispanic name and from what I could tell Joe the Joe did not look any darker to me than some Italians I went to school with. In fact he looked lighter than some Sicilians I knew. So why do you has Hispanics as an ooppsite of Whites ?

Just curious ??
 
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F107HyperSabr said:
Not being from the Southwest I am curious as why you assume that all Hispanics are non White? Quote from your post “and illegals commit crimes against them as much as whites “. Here in the Northeast we have “Hispanics” and Latins who come in all colors – White, tan, brown, and Black, and all hues in between all except maybe stripped ones which I have not seen one yet.
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I made no such assumption, you read that into it on your own....
I know Mexican citizens who look as "caucasion" as they come....
As for your part of the country, we weren't discussing it. We were discussing Arizona.
As for those with stripes, they are the ones in Sheriff Joe's tent cities and jails, along with the pink underwear, he makes them wear the stripes...
 
UtahBill said:
I made no such assumption, you read that into it on your own....
I know Mexican citizens who look as "caucasion" as they come....
As for your part of the country, we weren't discussing it. We were discussing Arizona.
As for those with stripes, they are the ones in Sheriff Joe's tent cities and jails, along with the pink underwear, he makes them wear the stripes...
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Actaully I wasn't assuming I read this "and illegals commit crimes against them as much as whites “. Now you refered to Hispanics who are not ilegals and you "and illegals commit crimes against them" and you went on with " as much as whites “ therefore you separated your resiedent Hispanics from "Whites".



I took it right from your line so there was no assuming it is stated here by you.
Originally Posted by UtahBill
I know the issue, and if you check with hispanics in Arizona, people who were born in the USA, most of them will agree with this bill. Illegals take THEIR jobs, too...and illegals commit crimes against them as much as whites.
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so that is the famous Sheriff Joe ?
 
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with unemployment near 10%, now is not the time to increase by tens of millions our citizenship roles, president obama

politically speaking, that is
 
At the bill signing ceremony, asked to “please explain what criteria will be used to determine if someone is an illegal immigrant? What does an illegal immigrant look like?” the Governor responded:

“I do not know what an illegal immigrant looks like.'' — Arizona Governor Jan Brewer†​

Well, that went well, don't you think? Actually, no. I don't think that went well.

Video: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJrcVvfv26Q&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Brewer: "I do not know what an illegal alien looks like"[/nomedia]
 
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search
Chappy said:
At the bill signing ceremony, asked to “please explain what criteria will be used to determine if someone is an illegal immigrant? What does an illegal immigrant look like?” the Governor responded:

“I do not know what an illegal immigrant looks like.'' — Arizona Governor Jan Brewer†​

Well, that went well, don't you think? Actually, no. I don't think that went well.

Video: YouTube- Brewer: "I do not know what an illegal alien looks like"
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Like this sorry I do not know how to paste in the acual picture!!


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I doubt illegal immigrants are going to stand out so conveniently for the governor's sake. But, that was really the point, Hispanics ‘look’ illegal wherever they were born to some Arizonans. This legislation is really the “Driving or walking or spitting or ****ing breathing while Hispanic law.”
 
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Chappy said:
I doubt illegal immigrants are going to stand out so conveniently for the governor's sake. But, that was really the point, Hispanics ‘look’ illegal wherever they were born to some Arizonans. This legislation is really the “Driving or walking or spitting or ****ing breathing while Hispanic law.”
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Gotta start somewhere. Might as well here.
 
I read the Arizona SENATE BILL 1070 but I do not see that is actually says that all "immigrants” need to produce an ID to prove that they are not illegal. I thought that it said aliens. The way I see it not all immigrant aliens as not all aliens are illegal. An immigrant is an alien up to the time he becomes naturalized and at that point becomes a citizen hence an immigrant yes but no longer an alien.


From the first two readings of that thing I cannot tell if I will be harassed as an alien in Arizona or not.
 
Chappy said:
I doubt illegal immigrants are going to stand out so conveniently for the governor's sake. But, that was really the point, Hispanics ‘look’ illegal wherever they were born to some Arizonans. This legislation is really the “Driving or walking or spitting or ****ing breathing while Hispanic law.”
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Do you realize that some cities in the Phoenix metro area do not allow their LE officers to check a persons status even after being arrested for other crimes?

Again, show me where in the Law that LE is going around just checking. IMO, and prove me wrong that LE will check after they have stopped someone for doing something else wrong (traffic violation, etc). This racial profile spin is just that spin.
Why are so may protecting the "illegals". I would be happy to have them all shipped to CA. Would SF accept them?
 
I.C.E. enforces immigration laws, not local police. If local law enforcement officers spend their time checking the papers of everyone they suspect of being an illegal immigrant as the law requires, do you think that community cooperation with them will be severely impacted? I do. This law has created a whole new criminal class and is about to reap that whirlwind.
 
F107HyperSabr said:
I read the Arizona SENATE BILL 1070 but I do not see that is actually says that all "immigrants” need to produce an ID to prove that they are not illegal.

I thought that it said aliens. The way I see it not all immigrant aliens as not all aliens are illegal.
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If you are not naturalized you are already required to carry your immigration documents.

An immigrant is an alien up to the time he becomes naturalized and at that point becomes a citizen hence an immigrant yes but no longer an alien.
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Are there actually any legal distinctions between an alien and a immigrant?
 
Chappy said:
I.C.E. enforces immigration laws, not local police. If local law enforcement officers spend their time checking the papers of everyone they suspect of being an illegal immigrant as the law requires, do you think that community cooperation with them will be severely impacted? I do. This law has created a whole new criminal class and is about to reap that whirlwind.
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You missed my point, in some cities LE would not even bother to call ICE, even after the person was in custody.

What new class. It is not legal by Federal Law to be in the US without permission.

So why should Az continue to tolerate almost 1/2 million illegals in its State.
Do you feel the Feds are doing an adequate job? I don't.
 
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