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Thread: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

  1. #531
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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Excellent link, thanks.

    Here is the parts of that article that I believe are most relevant to this discussion:

    What fewer people have noticed is the phrase "lawful contact," which defines what must be going on before police even think about checking immigration status. "That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "The most likely context where this law would come into play is a traffic stop."

    As far as "reasonable suspicion" is concerned, there is a great deal of case law dealing with the idea, but in immigration matters, it means a combination of circumstances that, taken together, cause the officer to suspect lawbreaking. It's not race -- Arizona's new law specifically says race and ethnicity cannot be the sole factors in determining a reasonable suspicion.

    For example: "Arizona already has a state law on human smuggling," says Kobach. "An officer stops a group of people in a car that is speeding. The car is overloaded. Nobody had identification. The driver acts evasively. They are on a known smuggling corridor." That is a not uncommon occurrence in Arizona, and any officer would reasonably suspect that the people in the car were illegal. Under the new law, the officer would get in touch with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement to check on their status.

    But what if the driver of the car had shown the officer his driver's license? The law clearly says that if someone produces a valid Arizona driver's license, or other state-issued identification, they are presumed to be here legally. There's no reasonable suspicion.

    Is having to produce a driver's license too burdensome? These days, natural-born U.S. citizens, and everybody else, too, are required to show a driver's license to get on an airplane, to check into a hotel, even to purchase some over-the-counter allergy medicines. If it's a burden, it's a burden on everyone.

    Still, critics worry the law would force some people to carry their papers, just like in an old movie. The fact is, since the 1940s, federal law has required non-citizens in this country to carry, on their person, the documentation proving they are here legally -- green card, work visa, etc. That hasn't changed.

    Even though this article puts an end to the excuses from the left, something tells me they will invent something else to bitch about.

  2. #532
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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Excellent link, thanks.

    Here is the parts of that article that I believe are most relevant to this discussion:

    What fewer people have noticed is the phrase "lawful contact," which defines what must be going on before police even think about checking immigration status. "That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "The most likely context where this law would come into play is a traffic stop."

    As far as "reasonable suspicion" is concerned, there is a great deal of case law dealing with the idea, but in immigration matters, it means a combination of circumstances that, taken together, cause the officer to suspect lawbreaking. It's not race -- Arizona's new law specifically says race and ethnicity cannot be the sole factors in determining a reasonable suspicion.

    For example: "Arizona already has a state law on human smuggling," says Kobach. "An officer stops a group of people in a car that is speeding. The car is overloaded. Nobody had identification. The driver acts evasively. They are on a known smuggling corridor." That is a not uncommon occurrence in Arizona, and any officer would reasonably suspect that the people in the car were illegal. Under the new law, the officer would get in touch with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement to check on their status.

    But what if the driver of the car had shown the officer his driver's license? The law clearly says that if someone produces a valid Arizona driver's license, or other state-issued identification, they are presumed to be here legally. There's no reasonable suspicion.

    Is having to produce a driver's license too burdensome? These days, natural-born U.S. citizens, and everybody else, too, are required to show a driver's license to get on an airplane, to check into a hotel, even to purchase some over-the-counter allergy medicines. If it's a burden, it's a burden on everyone.

    Still, critics worry the law would force some people to carry their papers, just like in an old movie. The fact is, since the 1940s, federal law has required non-citizens in this country to carry, on their person, the documentation proving they are here legally -- green card, work visa, etc. That hasn't changed.

    Even though this article puts an end to the excuses from the left, something tells me they will invent something else to bitch about.
    They'll just dismiss the evidence based off of their "feelings" on the subject.
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  3. #533
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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    The only reason that people like you don't want to see that happen is because you are racists who want to see law abiding Hispanic citizens being harassed and having their 14th amendment rights trampled upon.
    Ugh Doh.
    Doh flipped the Race Card.

    B O R I N G and unfounded.

    Go back to my link, listen to the first 15 minutes.
    If there is harassment, then the officer is subject to a court proceeding.

    Now, I have no doubt the illegals will use the courts as the Terrorists uses our media... like a bunch of whores.

    Now. White people are asked what they're up to if seen loitering. Why not everyone? If illegals are known to loiter in a certain area, then why can't the cops go there and the ILLEGALS, and send their asses back to where they came from?

    They are ILLEGAL. Not LEGAL. Overstayed their permitted visiting time. Are not allowed to be here... or their kids.

    Go home and build your own America.

    We cannot support all of you.

    We can and will support freedom. (Our presidents used to too; perhaps the next one).

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    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  4. #534
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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    [INDENT][I]What fewer people have noticed is the phrase "lawful contact," which defines what must be going on before police even think about checking immigration status. "That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "The most likely context where this law would come into play is a traffic stop."
    Yeah, saw that already. But it's one thing for this guy to declare that's what it means, it's another for it to be legally defined this way. It's not in this law. Maybe it is in other Arizona law, or maybe by the legal system in general, but we still don't know for sure.

    I think it probably is, but this doesn't prove it.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    They'll just dismiss the evidence based off of their "feelings" on the subject.
    Nothing like a pre-emptive strawman. And it's "based on" not "based off of."

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Okay I'm fine with it as long as it is practiced in that context.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Excellent link, thanks.

    Here is the parts of that article that I believe are most relevant to this discussion:


    Even though this article puts an end to the excuses from the left, something tells me they will invent something else to bitch about.
    Well if you'd been reading the thread you would see that what we've been discussing is where the phrase "lawful conduct" is defined, legally speaking. I know that law professor says something about it, but what is he basing that statement on?

    The other problem I have with the bill is the fact that there are circumstances in which I can be detained by the police for the sole "crime" of not having my birth certificate on me. We're literally just one vague term away from "Papers, please."
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    Originally Posted by cholla
    "That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "

    Some guy is one of those who helped write the bill. His meaning (given above)is the one closest to the truth of what the bill is intended to mean.
    That's quite a leap you're making. "Lawful contact" is not defined in this immigration bill, so unless there's a definition for it elsewhere it's quite simply up to individual interpretation.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  9. #539
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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    Originally Posted by cholla
    "That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "

    Some guy is one of those who helped write the bill. His meaning (given above)is the one closest to the truth of what the bill is intended to mean.
    Something some guy who helped write the bill said has no legal force though.

  10. #540
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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    I will be back in AZ in a few weeks, gonna see if the nearby Lowes and Home Depot still have the day loborers standing around. If they are still there, then this law is not being effective...
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

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