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Thread: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    I would say that legally endorsed racial profiling definitely violates that.
    I would assert that checking citizenship is not a search. Racial profiling for the purposes of checking citizenship does not violate equal protection. It would make for an interesting Supreme Court decision.

    We are idiots for not racial profiling. We are concerned about illegal aliens. The VAST majority of whom come from latin america and Mexico. We should be checking the citizenship of hispanics (all the races that that entails).

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    The law requires police to check with federal authorities on a person's immigration status, if officers have stopped that person for some legitimate reason and come to suspect that he or she might be in the U.S. illegally. The heart of the law is this provision: "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…"

    Critics have focused on the term "reasonable suspicion" to suggest that the law would give police the power to pick anyone out of a crowd for any reason and force them to prove they are in the U.S. legally. Some foresee mass civil rights violations targeting Hispanics.

    What fewer people have noticed is the phrase "lawful contact," which defines what must be going on before police even think about checking immigration status. "That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "The most likely context where this law would come into play is a traffic stop."
    Read more at the Washington Examiner: A carefully crafted immigration law in Arizona | Washington Examiner


    As you or anyone can see, CriticalThought is just blowing smoke. The law's provision he dislikes is only enacted when there is a prior cause. If an illegal immigrant is found to be an illegal immigrant, just because an officer wanted to discriminate, the immigrant would be protected.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Thanks for the opinion but let's have a court decide how carefully crafted the law is.
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Where do any of those cases give local cops the authority to demand papers from Hispanic citizens based solely on their skin color or manner of speaking? That is what I am primarily arguing.
    Where does this law say that local cops have authority to demand papers from Hispanic citizens based solely on their skin color or manner of speaking.

    It doesn't, you are imagining scenarios in your head.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Thanks for the opinion but let's have a court decide how carefully crafted the law is.
    Well, there's still a big difference between "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…" or "You will be stopped and arrested for looking Hispanic."

    Regardless of what the court decides, we can safely say it will not be because of the reasons CriticalThought brought up. Unless asking if your an illegal immigrant after running a red light somehow violates the 14th Amendment.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I would assert that checking citizenship is not a search. Racial profiling for the purposes of checking citizenship does not violate equal protection. It would make for an interesting Supreme Court decision.

    We are idiots for not racial profiling. We are concerned about illegal aliens. The VAST majority of whom come from latin america and Mexico. We should be checking the citizenship of hispanics (all the races that that entails).
    But you really don't have to profile. This is a tool once reasonable suspicion is established.

    And for those crying about what responsible suspicion is, look at cops who search cars. They do it after they establish reasonable suspicion, the manners of a person, the way they act, how they answer questions, their mood, all of those things establish reasonable suspicion and it has zero to do with racial profiling.

    If you are German and only speak German have no id and get very nervous when being questioned and I'm a police officer, I'm going to suspect you aren't here legally too. I'm not judging you on your race but your actions and demeanor, both taught at the police academy. It really is insulting for those pro illegal anti immigration law folks to assume police don't know how to establish reasonable suspicion when they do it every day on the job.

    People against this are either claiming their race trumps this countries' right to establish law which is no different than the KKK or they rely on a "what if" argument where they come up with a theory of how it could break the law but can't prove it is written to break the law.
    Last edited by texmaster; 04-27-10 at 08:14 PM.
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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens not illegals of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    no one is going to be denied equal protection because of this law.

    I would say that legally endorsed racial profiling definitely violates that.
    IF that is what the law said you would be right, problem with your argument is that the law does NOT say it is legalising racial profiling. Your interpretation is telling you that, not the actual words in tha law.
    Last edited by cholla; 04-27-10 at 08:11 PM.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    IF that is what the law said you would be right, problem with your argument is that the law does NOT say it is legalising racial profiling. Your interpretation is telling you that, not the actual words in tha law.
    Exactly right.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    But you really don't have to profile. This is a tool once reasonable suspicion is established.

    And for those crying about what responsible suspicion is, look at cops who search cars. They do it after they establish reasonable suspicion, the manners of a person, the way they act, how they answer questions, their mood, all of those things establish reasonable suspicion and it has zero to do with racial profiling.

    If you are German and only speak German have no id and get very nervous when being questioned and I'm a police officer, I'm going to suspect you aren't here legally too. I'm not judging you on your race but your actions and demeanor, both taught at the police academy. It really is insulting for those pro illegal anti immigration law folks to assume police don't know how to establish reasonable suspicion when they do it every day on the job.

    People against this are either claiming their race trumps this countries' right to establish law which is no different than the KKK or they rely on a "what if" argument where they come up with a theory of how it could break the law but can't prove it is written to break the law.
    If you only want to deport illegals found breaking the law or under suspicion, then you don't have to racially profile with this law.

    But if we wanted to get serious about it, we ought to be racially profiling.

    Personally, I think

    1. our border remains to porous to stop illegals
    2. counterfeit operations for documents would be a great black market job opportunity
    3. there are 10 million illegals (more?) we don't have the manpower to deport
    4. in 20 years we are going to be looking for immigrants to come into America to pay for the retirees
    5. we should just legalize all of them

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    The article I quoted said they, Arizona's now Governor, conducted a 2 year investigation but, found no illegals falsely registering to vote or voting. Another Right wing lie bites the dust.
    Of course us reasonable people do not want illegals here much less voting in our elections but I had a feeling that old "illegals voted and affected or infected our elections" song was one big crock. Maybe I expecetd too much out of people in that I assumed that the debate over immigration and especially illegal alens would be handled honestly.
    “I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us “ f107HyperSabr

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