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Thread: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    Probable cause is not something that is just made up, it must be provable in court, the very definition of it, limits it, in the way the 10th amendment limits the federal govt powers.
    Putting aside probable cause which is required for any arrest, this is what the Arizona law actually says...

    FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON.

    Do you have a legal definition for "reasonable suspicion"? Where in the language of this section does it say that local cop can't have a "reasonable" suspicion that a man is an illegal just because of his skin color or manner of speaking? What is to keep local cops from harassing Hispanic citizens by asking them several times a day, every day, for their papers?

    That is what I have been talking about. Not whether or not a citizen can be arrested, but whether or not they can be harassed for their papers.

    You have failed to provide any evidence that this law will not lead to many American's 14th amendment rights being trampled into the dirt.

    My opinion is that the people who support this law simply don't know what it actually says. They just assume that an officer has to have reason to arrest someone before they can ask for their papers. That isn't how the law reads. It says that local cops only need a reasonable suspicion that someone is an illegal to demand their papers and it doesn't outline what "reasonable suspicion" is.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 04-27-10 at 05:19 PM.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Do you have a legal definition for "reasonable suspicion"? Where in the language of this section does it say that local cop can't have a "reasonable" suspicion that a man is an illegal just because of his skin color or manner of speaking? What is to keep local cops from harassing Hispanic citizens by asking them several times a day, every day, for their papers?

    That is what I have been talking about. Not whether or not a citizen can be arrested, but whether or not they can be harassed for their papers.

    You have failed to provide any evidence that this law will not lead to many American's 14th amendment rights being trampled into the dirt.
    Yep, it's a common legal standard and precedent....

    ...a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences. It is the basis for an investigatory or Terry stop by the police and requires less evidence than probable cause, the legal requirement for arrests and warrants. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard, in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity; such suspicion is not a mere hunch. Police may also, based solely on reasonable suspicion of a threat to safety, frisk a suspect for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. A combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is also sometimes called "arguable suspicion".

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Yep, it's a common legal standard and precedent....
    Excellent. Now what did the law say?

    "REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN"

    The criminal activity they are judging a person for is whether or not they are in the country illegally. By what standard are they going to determine this?

    Let's try the rational of your example. If a white cop was in Mexico illegally, then how might he stand out as an illegal?

    Hm...I would say you just proved my point.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Excellent. Now what did the law say?

    "REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN"

    The criminal activity they are judging a person for is whether or not they are in the country illegally. By what standard are they going to determine this?

    Let's try the rational of your example. If a white cop was in Mexico illegally, then how might he stand out as an illegal?

    Hm...I would say you just proved my point.
    You need to research exactly what it means a little more, since based on this post, you have not clue what the restrictions of detaining someone based on reasonable suspicion entails.

    Are you still claiming that local law enforcement cannot enforce federal laws ???? or did you give up on that one?

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    You need to research exactly what it means a little more, since based on this post, you have not clue what the restrictions of detaining someone based on reasonable suspicion entails.
    I once again repeat why I think this is a bad law. It has nothing to do with "arrest" or "detaining". This law allows local cops to go up to Hispanic citizens, and on just the ground of their skin color or manner of speaking, they can demand their papers. This amount to harassment because it could very easily happen several times a day, every day, depending upon how bored the local cops are. That is in violation of their 14th amendment rights.

    Are you still claiming that local law enforcement cannot enforce federal laws ???? or did you give up on that one?
    Local cops can only enforce local laws. They cannot protect our borders.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 04-27-10 at 05:40 PM.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    You need to research exactly what it means a little more, since based on this post, you have not clue what the restrictions of detaining someone based on reasonable suspicion entails.

    Are you still claiming that local law enforcement cannot enforce federal laws ???? or did you give up on that one?
    Are you not forgetting the first part of the law, "FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL."

    The LE has to have a legal reason first to contact the person. There have been plenty of examples given already. Seems to me you need to look at the whole paragraph and not part to see what the law is saying.
    "I can explain it to you but, I can't understand it for you"

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I once again repeat why I think this is a bad law. It has nothing to do with "arrest" or "detaining". This law allows local cops to go up to Hispanic citizens, and on just the ground of their skin color or manner of speaking, they can demand their papers. This amount to harassment because it could very easily happen several times a day, every day, depending upon how bored the local cops are. That is in violation of their 14th amendment rights.
    You "think" is all you've been able to show here.

    Local cops can only enforce local laws. The cannot protect our borders.
    Really? I suggest you do a little research on the subject before sounding off on things you know nothing about.

    Ninth Circuit: Gonzales v. City of Peoria, "general rule is that local police are not precluded from enforcing federal statutes,"
    Tenth Circuit: United States v. Salinas-Calderon, "state trooper has general investigatory authority to inquire into possible immigration violations,"
    Tenth Circuit: United States v. Vasquez-Alvarez, "preexisting general authority of state or local police officers to investigate and make arrests for violations of federal law, including immigration laws,"
    Subsection 1324(c) of Title 8 specifically authorizes state and local officers "whose duty it is to enforce criminal laws" to make arrests for violations of 8 U.S.C. 1324. There is also a general federal statute which authorizes certain local officials to make arrests for violations of federal statutes, 18 U.S.C. 3041. The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals has held that 18 U.S.C. 3041 authorizes those local officials to issue process for the arrest, to be executed by law enforcement officers. See United States v. Bowdach, 561 F.2d 1160, 1168 (5th Cir. 1977).

    Rule 4(a)(1) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure provides that an arrest warrant "shall be executed by a marshal or by some other officer authorized by law." The phrase, "some other officer," includes state and local officers. Bowdach, supra.
    U.S. Justice Department

    Should I continue?

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I once again repeat why I think this is a bad law. It has nothing to do with "arrest" or "detaining". This law allows local cops to go up to Hispanic citizens, and on just the ground of their skin color or manner of speaking, they can demand their papers. This amount to harassment because it could very easily happen several times a day, every day, depending upon how bored the local cops are. That is in violation of their 14th amendment rights.
    Federal law already requires resident aliens to carry registration documents. SB 1070 makes it a state crime to violate the federal law. The law also lists documents that provide a presumption of citizenship, such as a Driver's License. There is no need for citizens to carry their birth certificate or passport.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I once again repeat why I think this is a bad law. It has nothing to do with "arrest" or "detaining". This law allows local cops to go up to Hispanic citizens, and on just the ground of their skin color or manner of speaking, they can demand their papers. This amount to harassment because it could very easily happen several times a day, every day, depending upon how bored the local cops are. That is in violation of their 14th amendment rights.



    Local cops can only enforce local laws. They cannot protect our borders.
    You are ignoring the reasonable suspision wording in the law again.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Porchev View Post
    Federal law already requires resident aliens to carry registration documents. SB 1070 makes it a state crime to violate the federal law. The law also lists documents that provide a presumption of citizenship, such as a Driver's License. There is no need for citizens to carry their birth certificate or passport.
    Federal law doesn't give federal law enforcers the authority to ask for those documents based just on a person's skin color or manner of speaking.

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