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Thread: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    There is no federal law which gives local law enforcement the ability to harass anyone they simply suspect might be an illegal immigrant. Try again. If you want to pull up the federal law and see so for yourself then have at it. That is not the only difference, it is a major difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Local law enforcement enforces local laws, not our borders.



    If every day you got stopped several times on the street by cops and were asked to show them your ID just because of your skin color or the way you spoke, then I think it would bother you quite a bit. Local cops have no right to bother a citizen without probable cause. There isn't even anything in this bill that highlights what "probable cause" is when it comes to determining who is and who isn't an illegal.
    Your argument is based on maybes and what ifs, therefore cannot be supported.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    Your argument is based on maybes and what ifs, therefore cannot be supported.
    No ****ing duh! The law doesn't take affect for 90 days. All you can do is speculate based upon how the law is written what will happen. And this law is clearly poorly written because no one can answer one simple question.

    What does it do to protect Hispanic citizens from being harassed by local law enforcement simply for their skin color or manner of speaking?

    If you can't answer that question, then you might want to ask yourself why you are so eager to risk trampling on other people's 14th amendment rights just to get at illegal immigrants.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Hyperbolic. Of course cops don't "just harass everyone on sight." That's what we call a strawman.

    What is a cop supposed to base this "reasonable suspicion" on? Also, do you usually carry proof of citizenship around? I don't. (driver's license is not proof) It must be nice to live in your world where the police would never abuse this law to detain people when they would otherwise not have the probable cause to do so. "I don't have any evidence of any crime but I suspect he's an immigrant because of his accent!"

    edit: I should also point out that "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause" are not the same thing, legally speaking.

    In AZ a drivers license is proof because you have to show proof of citisenship to get one.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Hyperbolic. Of course cops don't "just harass everyone on sight." That's what we call a strawman.
    So you and others haven't been suggesting that cops will be asking for people's ids when they're just out for a walk? No one has suggested that?

    What is a cop supposed to base this "reasonable suspicion" on? Also, do you usually carry proof of citizenship around? I don't. (driver's license is not proof)
    Yes, I do. I carry my drivers license, my passport, and my SS card. If something happens to me, I want to make damn sure people know who I am. I also want to be able to provide proof of who I am should I be involved in any legally questionable activity, whether voluntary or not. But, that's just me.

    As for what they'll base the reasonable suspicion on, why don't you ask cops what they EVER base their reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Whatever they've been basing it on previously are the same things they'll be basing it on now. That hasn't changed.

    It must be nice to live in your world where the police would never abuse this law to detain people when they would otherwise not have the probable cause to do so. "I don't have any evidence of any crime but I suspect he's an immigrant because of his accent!"
    Immigrant is irrelevant. It's not illegal to be an immigrant.

    And yes, there are some cops who abuse the law all the time. That why we have court systems and lawyers. They are the minority though, fortunately

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Well, not exactly true. Most of my family were born here - but we learned German and Hungarian while we were little as that's mostly what was spoken at home - our family's friends and neighbors lived in German / Slavic communities so it was easy to pick up. We learned English later when we were around 4 or 5 and then of course during school. While pockets of ethnic groups may be a little uncommon these days, they still do exist especially with non-European ethnic groups. Some people who moved to America years and years ago and learned enough English to pass the test - long ago forgot it because their entire community speaks something other than English. That may not sit well with some but it's still there ... and generalizing by stating they are therefore not citizens is frankly, incorrect.
    I am speaking of the illegals in AZ, the ones this thread is about.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by cholla View Post
    I am a contractor in Phoenix, there are already laws here that say you must e-verify new employees, the penalty for hiring illegals can be a fine or loss of your business license.

    That said, I think that there have been only 2 cases where anything was done to the employeer and both of those were recent (the law is about 3 years old) and only after multiple violations. I personally stopped hiring illegals when the law went into effect (too much liability, if I lose my license my family and all my employees familys no longer have an income)
    This new law has more teeth as far as the employeers are concerned.
    You say only 2 cases (that you know of) and only after multiple violations--that's not good.

    I guess once the new law goes into effect, police can pull up to a job site and question those who they suspect of being undocumented. If this does happen, I would hope that the other law re: the employer would be enforced as written. Like you said, if employers know they are risking their livelihood, they will be less inclined to cut corners.

    From what I know about this -- it's mostly demolition and landscaping crews that hire day labors.

    I've always wondered how fruit growers and wineries get away with this in CA.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    This law does.



    My point is that this law is too vague. Tell me. Exactly what is probable cause in determining whether a person is illegal or not?

    Legal Definition of Probable Cause

    When there are grounds for suspicion that a person has committed a crime or misdemeanor, and public justice and the good of the community require that the matter should be examined, there is said to be a probable cause for, making a charge against the accused, however malicious the intention of the accuser may have been. And probable cause will be presumed till the contrary appears.



    At what point can a local enforcement officer step in and ask someone for their citizenship papers?

    See above

    What in this bill protects Hispanic citizens from being harassed by local enforcement simply because of their skin color or manner of speaking?

    Same as above

    I want to protect out borders as much as anyone, but not through bad legislation which gives local cops a free license to harrass anyone whom they can make up a "probable cause" to harass.
    Probable cause is not something that is just made up, it must be provable in court, the very definition of it, limits it, in the way the 10th amendment limits the federal govt powers.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    You say only 2 cases (that you know of) and only after multiple violations--that's not good.

    I guess once the new law goes into effect, police can pull up to a job site and question those who they suspect of being undocumented. If this does happen, I would hope that the other law re: the employer would be enforced as written. Like you said, if employers know they are risking their livelihood, they will be less inclined to cut corners.

    From what I know about this -- it's mostly demolition and landscaping crews that hire day labors.

    In general this is true in my experience as well.

    I've always wondered how fruit growers and wineries get away with this in CA.
    I think that the laws are just not enforced over there, a more liberal mindset in general(Nancy Pelosi comes to mind)

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    What does Mexico do to illegals that enter it?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Local law enforcement enforces local laws, not our borders.
    Are you actually suggesting that local law enforcement is not allowed to enforce federal laws ???

    If every day you got stopped several times on the street by cops and were asked to show them your ID just because of your skin color or the way you spoke, then I think it would bother you quite a bit. Local cops have no right to bother a citizen without probable cause. There isn't even anything in this bill that highlights what "probable cause" is when it comes to determining who is and who isn't an illegal.
    Complete hyperbole. Police cannot stop anyone only to have them prove they are citizens. There must be already stopped for a normal legal reason such as a traffic stop. The local law enforcement doesn't determine if they are legal or not. If they can't prove they are legally in the country, they are turned over to federal authorities.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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