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Thread: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Suspicions that are reasonable. Again, this is not the only application of such rules. Do cops just harass everyone on sight because they can supposedly make "reasonable suspicion" or "probable cause" to mean anything they want?

    Of course not. Why in the world do you think this would be any different?
    I think some do, BUT, the courts can decide whether their bases constituted "reasonable suspicion."

    I worked for a federal judge and watched hearings on drug cases where "probable cause" was the issue. Oh my goodness. Some of the reasons the police gave for pulling someone over were truly bogus, and the judge called them on it. But, that's his job--to determine if the standard was met in a particular case.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    What is being debated here and elsewhere is how this law will play out once it is put into practice.

    While I understand some of the concern coming from the left and far-left about this potentially becoming a civil rights abuse, I believe that in Arizona (and California) the problem of illegal immigration has gotten so out of hand and become such a drain on public resources that drastic measures are necessary. I also believe that peace officers, by and large, are interested in enforcing the the law fairly and keeping the peace--meaning they are not motivated nor inclined to start rounding up hispanics in an abusive manner.

    I have seen first hand how profiling can be effective in stopping crimes. Police are trained to observe and make decisions based on certain criteria. The police officers I have interviewed and observed are exceptionally good at this. I would hope that before this law goes into effect some sort of training and criteria will be set as to what specifically patrol officers can and can not do under the new law.

    In most of the discussions there seems to be some disagreement about how this law will even be implemented once it goes into effect-- probable cause, racial profiling etc. Some commentators have been talking about a traffic stop example. Can an officer stop someone for a busted taillight then ask to see his papers? THIS ARGUMENT/DISCUSSION MAKES NO SENSE. "See his papers?" What papers? You can not get a driver's license or register a car without proof of residency. My understanding is that if you can not produce a driver's license or some form of valid ID, the new law allows police officers to ask for proof of residency. Why wasn't this done before? Because local police didn't have jurisdiction over immigration.

    Here is the scenario I believe may become problematic. A group of hispanic men are hanging around a building supply center in the morning, waiting for General Contractors to pull up in their pickup trucks and offer them work. If the police pull up, surround these men and ask to see ID's because these men fit a certain profile, then is this a violation of their rights?

    My position is this -- in this particular situation, even if the answer is technically 'Yes' this does violate their rights, I'm still okay with it. As long as the men are not physically abused, and only taken into custody (those who can't produce an ID or proof of residency) to be turned over to INS.

    One last question: In AZ, if you knowingly hire an illegal immigrant/undocumented worker and pay them under the table without filing payroll taxes etc., what crime have you committed and what is the potential punishment?

    IMO - States also need to address the supply/demand issue of undocumented workers. Who is hiring them and how come no agency is investigating or fining these employers?

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    I think some do, BUT, the courts can decide whether their bases constituted "reasonable suspicion."

    I worked for a federal judge and watched hearings on drug cases where "probable cause" was the issue. Oh my goodness. Some of the reasons the police gave for pulling someone over were truly bogus, and the judge called them on it. But, that's his job--to determine if the standard was met in a particular case.
    The police can usually find some reason to stop a person if they are suspicious of them. With that said, Chris Korbach, a law professor a the University of Missouri that helped write the bill says that the police can only question a person's status if they are already stopped for some other reason, probably a traffic stop. He says the police will not and cannot stop people randomly and ask them for proof of citizenship.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    I think some do, BUT, the courts can decide whether their bases constituted "reasonable suspicion."

    I worked for a federal judge and watched hearings on drug cases where "probable cause" was the issue. Oh my goodness. Some of the reasons the police gave for pulling someone over were truly bogus, and the judge called them on it. But, that's his job--to determine if the standard was met in a particular case.
    Oh I agree with that! Cops aren't perfect, and some are righteous asswipes. Just like people from any other walks of life. But that's what the courts are there for. That's why there is a provision there that states 'reasonable suspicion' or 'probable cause'. Because that can and will be called into question - as it should be.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Mark Levin
    April 26, 2010 show.

    For those interested in hearing an explanation about the law from a constitutional lawyer, the first 15 min should be enough.

    In short: The state is doing nothing other than upholding clearly stated federal law.
    Something the feds haven't done.

    Hey, Ho.. way to go... Ar-i-zon-a.... (to The Pretenders... Ohio)

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    I must say I am impressed with the level of agreement among folks with different political attitudes. Not so many ideologues here. Congrats!

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Mark Levin

    For those interested in hearing an explanation about the law from a constitutional lawyer, the first 15 min should be enough.

    In short: The state is doing nothing other than upholding federal law.

    .
    It's the link on the right on the page, marked 4/26 Mark Levin Show
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Anyone is targeted if the police officer feels like it. Apparently that is good enough to bypass the 4th amendment now.

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    Funny how selective conservatives get when they support bills like this. Only targets illegals my ass.

    edit: Did it occur to you that you only seem to rail about personal rights when it supports your personal political beliefs?

    Can you tell me how this law violates this amendment, no one is going to be searched or siezed, unless they are breaking a law. Asking someome to see their papers is not searching and siezing.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    You don't listen very well. Nobody here is arguing against a law that targets illegals. They are arguing against a law that requires anyone to submit documents to police proving that they are legal or face being arrested. That gives the police quite a bit of power to find anyone with brown skin and ask for their papers. The law is too broad and gives the police too much discretion. If the law did only target illegals, then very few people would be complaining. But the law is poorly written and so it can serve as a tool of discrimination.
    There is already a federal law that says this same thing, why were you not objecting to that one?

    Now we will have local police enforcing the same thing that the feds should have been doing in the first place.
    Thats the only difference.

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    Re: Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    This bill lets a police officer detain you until your documents are proven valid based on a "suspicion."

    So yes this bill is the problem.

    Not just a suspicion, a reasonable suspicion, HUGE difference. One can be proven valid in a court of law, the other not.

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