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GM Pays off its Bailout Loans

jacksbrat said:
You mean like the United Airline workers that got dumped on to the tax payers?
The truth is, I also receive a check from the tax payers by way of PGBC. I'm not a revious United airlines worker, but the company I worked and paid into a retirement fund got stolen by Reaganomics and I now get a retirement check from the government.
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It sounds like your former employer didn't have the funds to cover your retirement benefits.
It also seems, to me at least, that they should of never promised you something they couldn't deliver on.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
It sounds like your former employer didn't have the funds to cover your retirement benefits.
It also seems, to me at least, that they should of never promised you something they couldn't deliver on.
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We did until a junk bond shiester stoled the retirement fund. We went from millions in the black to millions in the red over night because of a hostile buyout proposal, thanks to Reagonomics..
 
jacksbrat said:
We did until a junk bond shiester stoled the retirement fund. We went from millions in the black to millions in the red over night because of a hostile buyout proposal, thanks to Reagonomics..
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That isn't the fault of anyone but the pension manager/s.

Putting retirement funds in less than Class A bonds in incredibly reckless.
He should of been sued and thrown in jail for violated his fiduciary duty.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
That isn't the fault of anyone but the pension manager/s.

Putting retirement funds in less than Class A bonds in incredibly reckless.
He should of been sued and thrown in jail for violated his fiduciary duty.
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No, we should have never elected a president that would pass such laws that made this kind of thievery possible. I'm sure the company thought they were doing everything right. Actually, our success was our downfall. Thank God the union insured our pension plan through the government, else all would have been lost.
 
texmaster said:
It doesn't change the fact 43 billion dollars of taxpayer money is owed.

They are far from paying it back.

Anyone who sees this as the conclusion of their loan is a sucker.
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I agree with you... it does make for good publicity for anyone that doesn't take the time to read the fine print...

"See, GM's not in bad shape, they already paid back on their loan."

I'd put 70-30 against GM paying back the remainder within the forseeable future though.

The nice thing about shuffling numbers is that you can use facts and figures to make whatever case you want to make.
 
Its good that they paid off their "loan" portion. Regardless of the tricks, that's good.

However it is also irresponsable journalism (and the type that if Fox News was doing it many on the left would be screaming "PROPOGANDA!" at the top of their lungs) to imply or act in articles as if simply paying off the loan makes GM essentially equal now in regards to the money the Government gave them.

They paid back less that 20% of what was owned and the Government still holds equity in a private company. Yes, its wonderful they've managed to pay back the 7 that they did and kudos for them to it. However I'm sorry if I'm not going to throw a parade or excuse a misleading news story simply because they paid back less than 20% they were given.
 
Zyphlin said:
Its good that they paid off their "loan" portion. Regardless of the tricks, that's good.

However it is also irresponsable journalism (and the type that if Fox News was doing it many on the left would be screaming "PROPOGANDA!" at the top of their lungs) to imply or act in articles as if simply paying off the loan makes GM essentially equal now in regards to the money the Government gave them.

They paid back less that 20% of what was owned and the Government still holds equity in a private company. Yes, its wonderful they've managed to pay back the 7 that they did and kudos for them to it. However I'm sorry if I'm not going to throw a parade or excuse a misleading news story simply because they paid back less than 20% they were given.
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Aside from confirming that GM has paid off $5.8 billion in loans owed to the U.S. and Canadian governments five years before the government deadline, CEO Ed Whitacre boldly predicted the U.S. government would recoup its entire $50-billion-plus investment in the automaker and possibly even make money on it.
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GM's Whitacre: U.S. may recoup all costs | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

Isn't this better than GM going out of business, as conservatives demanded?
 
WillRockwell said:
Isn't this better than GM going out of business, as conservatives demanded?
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Imo, no. Any business that can't stay afloat because they make good decisions and have legitimate and intelligent policies and leadership, should go out of business.
 
lizzie said:
Imo, no. Any business that can't stay afloat because they make good decisions and have legitimate and intelligent policies and leadership, should go out of business.
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That would have been the entire US financial industry in 2008. Then many non financial companies who would not have been able to get or renew their loans
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
That would have been the entire US financial industry in 2008. Then many non financial companies who would not have been able to get or renew their loans
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There's a ton of debt out there that is going to slowly take us down, and much of the financial industry did collapse. Allowing the natural course to take place would have made us much more stable in the long run by allowing businesses operating legitimately to take up the slack. We basically need to reboot the system.;) Americans, as a general rule, have a high capacity to live in denial, and our politicians continue to enable that. Our consumption is excessive, and our production is low, and until we as individuals and we as corporations and government entities learn to live within our means and in a reasonable manner, nothing will improve.
 
lizzie said:
Imo, no. Any business that can't stay afloat because they make good decisions and have legitimate and intelligent policies and leadership, should go out of business.
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I'm not so sure about that...

If a company of that size DOES manage to fail, there's only ONE reason... Simply, these companies collapsed under the weight of their own corruption.

If those 'too big to fail' companies failed... wouldn't that FORCE the american people to return to an entrepreneurial spirit, which would then spark it's own wave of innovation??
 
lizzie said:
Imo, no. Any business that can't stay afloat because they make good decisions and have legitimate and intelligent policies and leadership, should go out of business.
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I don't disagree with you, but we have to be willing to let all the support business also fail. It would be painful, and it would hurt a lot of working people. Do you believe politicians would not be blamed for the fallout?
 
texmaster said:
No because they borrowed 43 Billion more.

They simply aren't paying interest on that loan.

You aren't going to pretend that 43 billion didn't come from the government are you?
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No, that is factually incorrect. They traded equity for the other 43b. They borrowed 7b, which they have now paid back.
 
GM is still left being Government Motors, and that is not helping them, they need to pay back everything and stand on their own without the federal government:

"...But the loan money is only a fraction of the financial support that the federal government gave to GM over the past 12 months to stop it from going out of business.

Overall, GM received $50 billion in federal help. In return, the government got $2 billion in preferred stock and 61% of the company's privately held common shares..."
 
Zyphlin said:
Its good that they paid off their "loan" portion. Regardless of the tricks, that's good.

However it is also irresponsable journalism (and the type that if Fox News was doing it many on the left would be screaming "PROPOGANDA!" at the top of their lungs) to imply or act in articles as if simply paying off the loan makes GM essentially equal now in regards to the money the Government gave them.

They paid back less that 20% of what was owned and the Government still holds equity in a private company. Yes, its wonderful they've managed to pay back the 7 that they did and kudos for them to it. However I'm sorry if I'm not going to throw a parade or excuse a misleading news story simply because they paid back less than 20% they were given.
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It appears to me that everyone is under the false impression that GM is intending to "pay back" the government for the part of GM that the taxpayers now own. In a sense, the taxpayers have already been 'paid back' for the 47 billion. We have been paid in preferred and common shares. More strictly speaking, we bought part of the company.

When we sell our shares of GM, it is unlikely that GM will be the entity that purchases them from us. They will more likely be bought by the usual purchasers of stocks: individuals, mutual funds, etc. There is a chance that we will sell the shares at a higher price than we paid for them.

It is not "propaganda" to state that GM has repaid it's loan, as long as the article states that more money was used to bail out GM. And, by golly, it does!

But the loan money is only a fraction of the financial support that the federal government gave to GM over the past 12 months to stop it from going out of business.

Overall, GM received $50 billion in federal help. In return, the government got $2 billion in preferred stock and 61% of the company's privately held common shares.
Taxpayers could recoup money from a possible sale of GM stock to the public [on the stock market] in the future.
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And the fact remains that GM is ahead of schedule in repaying the loan.

It would be propaganda to state that GM still owes money, especially without explaining that we taxpayers own part of the company until we sell the stock.
 
Redress said:
No, that is factually incorrect. They traded equity for the other 43b. They borrowed 7b, which they have now paid back.
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That 43 billion came from the government, period.

There are no fancy tricks that take away from the fact the money came from the government and the government only.
 
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texmaster said:
That 43 billion came from the government, period.

There are no fancy tricks that take away from the fact the money came from the government and the government only.
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And no one is arguing that. However, the government gave GM ~7b in loans, which has been paid off. The article and OP are factually correct.
 
washunut said:
Not really. Most of what we gave to GM is now called equity so let's not ahead of ourselves. Also there is a huge loan to GMAC which we were told had to be bailed out along with GM.

Very doubtful the GMAC loan will be fully repaid or that we will make money on the GM equity.

The only part of the deal which made the country money is the one Obama and team like to berate, the banks.
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Actually, the gov't is likely to do quite well on the equity when the New GM has its IPO later this year....

As to the taxpayers getting their money back... they actually are in the same manner they "lost it". Taxpayers were outraged with the "bailout", which was largely done with the government turning on the printing press. Now that it has been repaid, those "outraged" taxpayers owe those that had to deal with this "outrage" equivalent silence as the government is just not out the money. In fact, the overall $800B bailout of banks and the automakers is actually down to a $80B bailout... so all those that told us how the sky is falling can just calm down.
 
BmanMcfly said:
I'm not so sure about that...

If a company of that size DOES manage to fail, there's only ONE reason... Simply, these companies collapsed under the weight of their own corruption.

If those 'too big to fail' companies failed... wouldn't that FORCE the american people to return to an entrepreneurial spirit, which would then spark it's own wave of innovation??
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Yes- that's what we need. We are drowning in our own lethargy and indebtedness.

Like I said, we are producing very little, and consuming much. We need to produce and consume in a more balanced manner. New entrepeneurial innovations without the "old blood" dragging on the system is a good thing imo. We are, in effect, trying to save dinosaurs.
 
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Boo Radley said:
I don't disagree with you, but we have to be willing to let all the support business also fail. It would be painful, and it would hurt a lot of working people. Do you believe politicians would not be blamed for the fallout?
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Yes, it would be painful, but in the long run, if we don't come to some kind of grip on what we are doing, it will be a slow painful death. As for politicians, I don't frankly care if they are blamed. They certainly had their part to play in this screwed up mess we've gotten ourselves into.
 
Redress said:
And no one is arguing that. However, the government gave GM ~7b in loans, which has been paid off. The article and OP are factually correct.
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Again, No it is not.

They only paid back part of the loan.

Loan- An arrangement in which a lender gives money or property to a borrower, and the borrower agrees to return the property or repay the money, usually along with interest, at some future point(s) in time.

loan Definition

So again it is not factually correct they paid back the loan. Just because the government was stupid enough to give them interest free money that doesn't change the fact it is still a loan and 43 Billion has not been paid back.
 
upsideguy said:
Actually, the gov't is likely to do quite well on the equity when the New GM has its IPO later this year....

.
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Do you have a basis for this comment? What percent equity stake does the government have, what would the market cap have to be for the government to do quite well?

If you do not have the answers to these questions, please tell the forum so that we can understand where you are coming from.
 
texmaster said:
That 43 billion came from the government, period.

There are no fancy tricks that take away from the fact the money came from the government and the government only.
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And, there is no changing the fact that the government will eventually sell the part of GM that we now own, and will recover most, perhaps all and then some, of the money that we spent in purchasing part of GM.


You people just don't want other people to realize that the bailouts, in all the forms they came in, have gone generally well, and that they saved us all from abject misery. Cuz that would affect the upcoming elections.
 
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