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Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

Those materials can be stored outside a lifesupport facility.

subject to extreme cold, extreme heat, radiation, and maybe even micrometeors....there is no atmosphere on the moon to moderate the potential damage to everything we haul up there.
There is a recent show, on science channel, I think, that lays out all the problems we will face to "man the moon". Those kinds of shows will pop up about once a month, repeated and repeated again...
 
It's the baiting and confrontational attitude. It had nada to do with the Lucy comment. It was the "I won't be holding my breath" comment. It is not fun having a discussion with those who practice such things.

Yeah but c'mon. You did start with the "did you miss."

I'm not saying it's your fault, I'm just saying I try to give people a little leeway before I get mad because it's so hard to read facial cues when you're typing.

Plus as a rule, I try not to let people I don't even know get me upset. I have enough problems with the ones I do know. :mrgreen:
 
Why wouldn't a staging platform in geosynchronous orbit be significantly cheaper than staging on the moon? What does the moon provide aside from gravity?

You said it, gravity. There would be less deleterious effects hosting the crews on the moon for long term. Plus there is the research into moon manufacturing which would be possible. I think I heard that there is a compound on the moon that could result in O2 being produced, but that could easily have been a sci-fi story.
 
subject to extreme cold, extreme heat, radiation, and maybe even micrometeors....there is no atmosphere on the moon to moderate the potential damage to everything we haul up there.
There is a recent show, on science channel, I think, that lays out all the problems we will face to "man the moon". Those kinds of shows will pop up about once a month, repeated and repeated again...

We could pput it in a hole to protect from micrometeors and radiation and temperature (no atmosphere for convection, conduction temp in hole would be cold even when direct sunlight on surface, radiation accounted for). So the only issue would be cold and that won't be a problem for any of fuel, food, O2 or W2O.

I am sorry I missed the show...plenty of problems.
 
Yeah but c'mon. You did start with the "did you miss."

I'm not saying it's your fault, I'm just saying I try to give people a little leeway before I get mad because it's so hard to read facial cues when you're typing.

Plus as a rule, I try not to let people I don't even know get me upset. I have enough problems with the ones I do know. :mrgreen:

I honestly didn't think my "did you miss" was very confrontational, but perhaps it is. I got irritated and posted that comment, then thought better of it and deleted it.

I don't get mad at anyone in real life! But I do let out some emotion on DP at times, tis true.
 
You said it, gravity. There would be less deleterious effects hosting the crews on the moon for long term. Plus there is the research into moon manufacturing which would be possible. I think I heard that there is a compound on the moon that could result in O2 being produced, but that could easily have been a sci-fi story.

It's easy to achieve gravity in a space station of the ring design - much easier than involving the moon.
 
It's easy to achieve gravity in a space station of the ring design - much easier than involving the moon.

That's true. Leaving the research of the industrialization of the moon as an unachieved objective.
 
I honestly didn't think my "did you miss" was very confrontational, but perhaps it is. I got irritated and posted that comment, then thought better of it and deleted it.

I don't get mad at anyone in real life! But I do let out some emotion on DP at times, tis true.

I know I saw. I deleted mine too, but it was too late, the damage had been done. :doh
 
ah, so the man who just EXPANDED MEDICARE AND MEDICAID BY TWELVE MILLION POOR SCHMUCKS WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY CUTTING M&M's ALREADY OVER-STRAINED AND VITALLY-RELIED-UPON BUDGETS BY HALF A TRIL is suddenly gonna save us from BANKRUPTCY by eliminating forty five cents from nasa spending!

LOL!

the piefaced prez who just spent EIGHT HUNDRED AND SIXTY TWO BILLION DOLLARS on a STIMULUS which he can't call a STIMULUS anymore (the word is political obscenity), all the while PROMISING unemployment would cap at EIGHT PERCENT thereby...

that PERSONAL INCOME would grow THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS per american thereby...

the same obtuse obama who just advanced A HUNDRED THOUSAND upside down homeowners mortgage modifications, SIXTY PERCENT of whom have already REDEFAULTED...

the same keynesian catastrophe who just raised the DEBT CEILING by TWO TRIL, who just proposed a BUDGET with ONE POINT SIX TRIL of RED, who borrows FOURTEEN PERCENT of gdp just to get by and puts us on course to having to borrow NINETY PERCENT of gdp by decade's end...

suddenly, this financial FLUMMOX is gonna SAVE us all from going BANKRUPT by trimming the FINGERNAILS at NASA!

it is to LOL!
 
heavy lift, manned flight, long-term habitation of space and the moon, research platform for industries on the moon, way station to mars and earth orbit maintenance...
we have higher priorities right now than worrying about a way station to mars. seriously.

space exploration is just not essential right now.
 
we have higher priorities right now than worrying about a way station to mars. seriously.

space exploration is just not essential right now.

We can do space exploration and search for a cure to cancer. Both are needed. What we don't need is entitlements which absorb 60% of our budget. They can fend for themselves like proper Americans.
 
If Armstrong wants to pay the cost of sending someone to the moon, then I would fully support Armstrong's position. However, when our deficit is as large as it is, I don't support sending someone to the moon, as it is not necessary for our survival.

Your concern over the budget rings hollow. Liberals are the kings of deficit spending...
 
we have higher priorities right now than worrying about a way station to mars. seriously.

space exploration is just not essential right now.

Says you. I think aggressive manned space exploration should be a top long term priority for the US. Subsidizing some bum's healthcare or retirement ranks pretty damn low on the list for me...

Anyway, reading this thread was amusing. Seeing all the liberals talk about fiscal responsibility and deficits. Like whores in Church...
 
Your concern over the budget rings hollow. Liberals are the kings of deficit spending...

Says you. I think aggressive manned space exploration should be a top long term priority for the US. Subsidizing some bum's healthcare or retirement ranks pretty damn low on the list for me...

Anyway, reading this thread was amusing. Seeing all the liberals talk about fiscal responsibility and deficits. Like whores in Church...

lol! Oh the irony.
 
lol! Oh the irony.

What percentage of the current budget deficit is attributable to NASA? Go ahead, answer the question so I can laugh at you...

By the way, whether you want to admit it or not, you've benefited immensely from manned space exploration, as has every man, woman, and child in the United States. Can't say the same thing for all the welfare programs the liberals love...
 
What percentage of the current budget deficit is attributable to NASA? Go ahead, answer the question so I can laugh at you...

By the way, whether you want to admit it or not, you've benefited immensely from manned space exploration, as has every man, woman, and child in the United States. Can't say the same thing for all the welfare programs the liberals love...

It doesn't matter what the percentage is. We're running a deficit and you want to spend money on non-essential research.

You liberal you.
 
It doesn't matter what the percentage is. We're running a deficit and you want to spend money on non-essential research.

You liberal you.

Why don't we drop the DEA, the FDA and the FCC instead?
 
now explain for us what technological edge will be lost to us, which advancement would have otherwise been afforded by pursuing the constellation program

this lunar landing was a solution in search of a problem

While one cannot foresee all the possible spin-offs, the technology required for a reliable lunar lander, among other components of the program, could have broad use for other manned missions beyond the moon.

In fact, using the Orion for a scaled-down purpose of its becoming a standby emergency vehicle, assuming the radio reports I heard this morning were correct, amounts to a solution in search not of a problem, but a contingent problem, for which alternatives exist.

In the end, my concern is not so much about the details of Constellation but what seems to be an approach that replaces a chronically underfunded project with what amounts to a potential retreat from the space program. It will be interesting to see what the details are.

Will there be an overriding, ambitious goal?

Will there be a commitment to investing the funds required to achieve that goal?

Will there be a robust assessment mechanism for assuring that the overriding goal is achieved in a timely and economical fashion (unlike the F-35 project)?

Will the overall approach amount to an increase in the intensity of the manned space program or a decline in its intensity?

It will be those criteria, among others, that provide insight into the new approach. If the move is really about deficit reduction, it is little more than symbolism over substance at the risk of foregoing substantial long-term benefits. Even the outright elimination of NASA would make an immaterial contribution toward addressing the nation's long-term fiscal imbalances.

To address those imbalances, fiscal consolidation has to get to the root causes. Politically difficult as it is, that will mean addressing Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid's challenges. Social Security reform is relatively straight-forward (raising the retirement age and then tying it to changes in life expectancy, some increase in payroll taxes, and a transitional period where benefit growth is capped at some percentage less than the inflation rate until the structure is sustainable). Fixing Medicare and Medicaid will involve far more difficult issues, foremost of which will be eliminating health care's excessive cost growth. A situation where national health expenditures consistently increase at a multiple of GDP is not sustainable. Foreigners will not finance that and other fiscal imbalances indefinitely. Resolving the cost issue could well require a fundamental restructuring of the U.S. health care system as it currently exists.
 
Why don't we drop the DEA, the FDA and the FCC instead?

At that point, it's a matter of opinions. I personally think the DEA, the FDA, and the FCC are more valuable than a space program. Evidently you don't. What is not a logical position is saying that only luxury spending you personally approve of are okay in a deficit situation.
 
it doesn't matter what the percentage is---LOL!
 
At that point, it's a matter of opinions. I personally think the DEA, the FDA, and the FCC are more valuable than a space program. Evidently you don't. What is not a logical position is saying that only luxury spending you personally approve of are okay in a deficit situation.

We disagree on the value of the DEA, FDA, and FCC. Watch Food, Inc. for insight into how much (not much) the FDA actually does.

I absolutely do not agree that NASA is luxury spending.
 
We disagree on the value of the DEA, FDA, and FCC. Watch Food, Inc. for insight into how much (not much) the FDA actually does.

I absolutely do not agree that NASA is luxury spending.

Love Food, Inc (duh, I am a hippy!). One of my favorite movies.

Regardless, I see no evidence to show that NASA is not a luxury. Why do you hold that opinion? Scientific research, while nice, is something that the private sector will pick up if it's necessary.
 
It doesn't matter what the percentage is. We're running a deficit and you want to spend money on non-essential research.

You liberal you.

Complete hogwash, that. I advocate for cuts in entitlement spending, thereby balancing the budget, hence I'm no liberal.

Here's the answer to the question you ignored...

NASA FY 2009, Outlays: $17.318 billion (1).
Federal deficit FY 2009: $1.42 trillion (2).

$17.318 billion/$1.42 trillion = 0.012 or about 1%.

By golly! Such reckless spending. Thank God Obama has rectified this massive fiscal disparity...

And your definition of "essential research" is up for debate. I doubt you know much about it, though.

(1) - Budget FY 2009 - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
(2) - [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget]2010 United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
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Complete hogwash, that. I advocate for cuts in entitlement spending, thereby balancing the budget, hence I'm no liberal.

Here's the answer to the question you ignored...

NASA FY 2009, Outlays: $17.318 billion (1).
Federal deficit FY 2009: $1.42 trillion (2).

$17.318 billion/$1.42 trillion = 0.012%

By golly! Such reckless spending. Thank God Obama has rectified this massive fiscal disparity...

And your definition of "essential research" is up for debate. I doubt you know much about it, though.

(1) - Budget FY 2009 - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
(2) - 2010 United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why is it up for debate? If it was essential, that would mean people would pay for it and the private sector could take over R&D. Wait...are you saying that the market fails in this instance and the government should step in?! :shock:

Are you sure you're not a liberal?

You're arguing for a cut in one luxury to support another luxury. That's not only a liberal way of thinking, but a hypocritical liberal way of thinking. I mean, if you're going to be a liberal, at least own up to all of it.
 
Love Food, Inc (duh, I am a hippy!). One of my favorite movies.

Regardless, I see no evidence to show that NASA is not a luxury. Why do you hold that opinion? Scientific research, while nice, is something that the private sector will pick up if it's necessary.

Well, damn, you see no evidence that NASA is not a luxury, therefore it must be true, expert that you are.

The private sector only does things that are profitable within a limited time frame. How much profit do you think there is in simply flying to the moon and back, or orbiting the moon for a week or two? Lots of cash to be made there!
 
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