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Thread: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    It's really the same thing. If it's essential, people will pay for it.
    Essential to what? The individual? The city? The state? The country? The region? The world? Humanity?

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    You're the one who initiated hostilities when you attempted to label me as a liberal. I take that as an insult.
    Well, that's your own problem. You're still not invited to my coronation.

    I asked you earlier, how much profit there is in simply flying to the moon and back? Here's how you can figure it out...

    Profit = total revenue - total cost.

    Give me your "back of the napkin" estimate.
    Just floating a theory out there, maybe there's no profit to it because it doesn't produce anything. And if it doesn't produce anything that most people value, why would you force them to pay for it through their taxes?

    It has nothing to do with me. The private sector has limitations; its called "market failure". Basic economics, really. It wasn't something I made up in order to win a silly internet argument.
    It does? So I can only assume you support a whole host of liberal policies, starting with cap and trade for carbon emissions.

    I'm pretty sure conservatives think the market is perfect. Just FYI, before you get kicked out of the club.

    I never said the market "doesn't know what it's doing" or "the government knows better". Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.
    So if the market does know what it's doing, why are you recommending we take money from people to fund something they wouldn't do on their own? I mean, shoot, while we're doing that, let's just pay for public health care while we're at it!

    What I said was this: the private sector is incapable of financing manned space exploration, as they possess limited funds, and are profit-oriented.

    Capiche?
    As long as you can handle the cognitive dissonance, sure.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    You're just making an assumption, which proves nothing. You can't say for certain how many people would pay or how much they would pay or if it would be enough to fund "essential" functions of the military.

    Either way, it doesn't have to be the military; it could be any government agency enumerated in the Constitution.

    I consider NASA to be part of the military, anyway.
    And so are you.

    You should let the military know they have a new branch. I'm sure they'd be amused.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    Essential to what? The individual? The city? The state? The country? The region? The world? Humanity?
    All of the above. Are you saying people won't pay for services/goods they consider essential on any level?
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Well, that's your own problem. You're still not invited to my coronation.
    Just setting the record straight, your majesty.

    Just floating a theory out there, maybe there's no profit to it because it doesn't produce anything. And if it doesn't produce anything that most people value, why would you force them to pay for it through their taxes?
    Okay then. I suspect you won't have any problems eliminating the technological innovations of NASA from your life and everyone else's, since they don't produce anything of worth.

    First, you can throw out pretty much anything that uses microprocessors or wireless technology.

    Next, you can walk to your local hospital and start ripping off prosthetic limbs. Once you're done with that, visit the folks awaiting a heart transplant and remove their ventricle pumps.

    You know what, just read this and tell me which innovations you're willing to go without...

    http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/Spinoff2...pinoff2009.pdf

    It does? So I can only assume you support a whole host of liberal policies, starting with cap and trade for carbon emissions.
    Why would I support cap and trade for carbon emissions?

    I'm pretty sure conservatives think the market is perfect. Just FYI, before you get kicked out of the club.
    I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Just FYI, before you look foolish.

    So if the market does know what it's doing, why are you recommending we take money from people to fund something they wouldn't do on their own? I mean, shoot, while we're doing that, let's just pay for public health care while we're at it!
    The market failure isn't from a lack of knowledge, it's from a lack of funding and profit motive.

    As long as you can handle the cognitive dissonance, sure.
    Well, you know squat about economics and finance, but you're an expert at childish insults. Good for you...

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Let me do a slight parody of certain of our posters...

    "OH NO, Obama spends too much money."

    "OH NO, Obama cut spending on a program I like."

    Sorry, you cannot have it both ways. If you think spending is a problem, then spending cuts should be praised. If you think we cannot cut spending on this or that program, you bitching about spending is phony.
    Obama is not cutting funding to NASA. In fact, he is INCREASING funding... by hugely expanding its climate program.

    NASA never took any sort of large portion of the budget anyways. It in no way contradicts fiscal responsibility.

    For the most part, people are criticizing spending that they see the government doing that individuals are capable of doing (health care, etc.). That's only true for the space program if a viable private market model emerges.
    Last edited by Dav; 04-15-10 at 04:44 PM.

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    And so are you.

    You should let the military know they have a new branch. I'm sure they'd be amused.
    Well, maybe you can inform the CIA and the NSA that NASA will no longer be putting their spy satellites into orbit. You can also inform the Air Force that any future collaboration with NASA will no longer be necessary. And don't forget to tell China and Russia that space is never to be weaponized. I'm sure we can trust them...

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    All of the above. Are you saying people won't pay for services/goods they consider essential on any level?
    Not only am I saying they won't, I am saying they would even kill and maim one another for simply being a different color or religion. Humans have this funny habit of acting violently and selfishly and irrationally.

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    My point is you have to have a method of determining of something is necessary other than "cause I think it's important." Classical liberal economics (today's conservative economics) dictates that if it's not necessary, the free market won't provide for it. Which is why we see schools, health insurance, etc and why we would see private police and military forces if the government stopped providing it. But if the government stopped paying for a space program, the only way one would continue is if a private company could profit out of it. I think we both know that wouldn't happen because most people don't see a space program as worth their hard earned dollars. If they do, they'll pay for it. If most people wouldn't pay for it themselves, taking their tax dollars to pay for it is just socialism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    It's really the same thing. If it's essential, people will pay for it.
    I think many people would pay for a space program. It does deliver essential benefits, but those are long-term and not easily definable for the market to invest.

    The government does do essential funding of non-marketable activities. I would include the military, as big as it is, in this category. Ditto the State Department. Ditto basic science research. These are things we should continue to fund at the government level. That means collecting taxes to pay for it. In no way does this resemble socialism.

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I think many people would pay for a space program. It does deliver essential benefits, but those are long-term and not easily definable for the market to invest.

    The government does do essential funding of non-marketable activities. I would include the military, as big as it is, in this category. Ditto the State Department. Ditto basic science research. These are things we should continue to fund at the government level. That means collecting taxes to pay for it. In no way does this resemble socialism.
    Conservatives aren't allowed to support any government spending without being hypocrites.

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