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Thread: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

  1. #231
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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    Last time I checked, you weren't the final arbiter on what's "essential" and what is not. I don't know, maybe I missed your coronation or something....
    Given your misplaced hostility, I'm sure you understand why you didn't get the invitation.

    In my humble opinion, manned space exploration is essential to the long term prosperity and security of the United States. The "long term" nature of such a venture prohibits profit-oriented models from effectively assuming the responsibility for space exploration.
    Well, I'm sure if the market agreed, it would be able to make a profit. Are you saying you know better than the market?

    Yes, the free market has its limitations, or haven't you taken an economics course?

    I wonder what would have happened if we left the A-bomb to the free market...
    So the market has its limitations when it's something you find important? What a convenient theory for you!


    Name-calling and childish labeling is all you got. Is there someone with at least a cursory understanding of basic economics and science that I can discuss this issue with?
    I have an extremely good grasp of economic theory and how you're breaking the liberal free market theory (well, what you would call conservative economic theory), by insisting that the market doesn't know what it's doing and we should tax people because the government knows better.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Haven't heard of it. I'm sure at some point netflix will recommend it to me.
    I found it: Temple Grandin.

    Some science is not a luxury. That's why corporations have R&D departments. If people don't want to pay for the space program, who are you to tell them we need it?
    The same is true of any other government spending. Some people may not like it, but their taxes are used to pay for it.

    As an example, corporations did not pay for ARPAnet. This turned out to be a big commercial success. Government as incubator. Not all science and space exploration efforts result in commercial success. They are still necessary.

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    I doubt it...



    You could make the exact same argument for the military.
    No you couldn't. Most people would pay money for a protectionist military at the very least. Proving that the free market is able to decide what is essential.
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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I found it: Temple Grandin.
    I'll have to take a look at it. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The same is true of any other government spending. Some people may not like it, but their taxes are used to pay for it.

    As an example, corporations did not pay for ARPAnet. This turned out to be a big commercial success. Government as incubator. Not all science and space exploration efforts result in commercial success. They are still necessary.
    That's not true of other government spending. For instance, health care exists in the free market. As do schools and a variety of other things the market has deemed as essential.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    That's not true of other government spending. For instance, health care exists in the free market. As do schools and a variety of other things the market has deemed as essential.
    I miss your point. There are government programs for those things, as well as private replacements. In the case of healthcare, most people receiving public assistance do not search out private coverage. Most people receiving private coverage are excluded from public assistance. Schools have public schools for all or you can opt for private education as a true replacement (unlike healthcare).

    In science AND in space exploration, there are public research (at public and private institutions - funded by public $$) as well as some private research. Lots in drugs, little in basic science. There would be very little basic science research if the government stopped funding it. The same is true of space exploration.

    Like I said, drop the DEA, the FDA and the FCC. They are not necessary.

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    That's not true of other government spending. For instance, health care exists in the free market. As do schools and a variety of other things the market has deemed as essential.
    In addition, it was not the market deeming them essential, it was the market deeming them profitable.

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Given your misplaced hostility, I'm sure you understand why you didn't get the invitation.
    You're the one who initiated hostilities when you attempted to label me as a liberal. I take that as an insult.

    Well, I'm sure if the market agreed, it would be able to make a profit. Are you saying you know better than the market?
    I asked you earlier, how much profit there is in simply flying to the moon and back? Here's how you can figure it out...

    Profit = total revenue - total cost.

    Give me your "back of the napkin" estimate.

    So the market has its limitations when it's something you find important? What a convenient theory for you!
    It has nothing to do with me. The private sector has limitations; its called "market failure". Basic economics, really. It wasn't something I made up in order to win a silly internet argument.

    I have an extremely good grasp of economic theory and how you're breaking the liberal free market theory (well, what you would call conservative economic theory), by insisting that the market doesn't know what it's doing and we should tax people because the government knows better.
    I never said the market "doesn't know what it's doing" or "the government knows better". Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

    What I said was this: the private sector is incapable of financing manned space exploration, as they possess limited funds, and are profit-oriented.

    Capiche?

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I miss your point. There are government programs for those things, as well as private replacements. In the case of healthcare, most people receiving public assistance do not search out private coverage. Most people receiving private coverage are excluded from public assistance. Schools have public schools for all or you can opt for private education as a true replacement (unlike healthcare).

    In science AND in space exploration, there are public research (at public and private institutions - funded by public $$) as well as some private research. Lots in drugs, little in basic science. There would be very little basic science research if the government stopped funding it. The same is true of space exploration.

    Like I said, drop the DEA, the FDA and the FCC. They are not necessary.
    My point is you have to have a method of determining of something is necessary other than "cause I think it's important." Classical liberal economics (today's conservative economics) dictates that if it's not necessary, the free market won't provide for it. Which is why we see schools, health insurance, etc and why we would see private police and military forces if the government stopped providing it. But if the government stopped paying for a space program, the only way one would continue is if a private company could profit out of it. I think we both know that wouldn't happen because most people don't see a space program as worth their hard earned dollars. If they do, they'll pay for it. If most people wouldn't pay for it themselves, taking their tax dollars to pay for it is just socialism.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    In addition, it was not the market deeming them essential, it was the market deeming them profitable.
    It's really the same thing. If it's essential, people will pay for it.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

    Serbian proverb

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    Re: Neil Armstrong, other astronauts call Obama's NASA plans 'devastating'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    No you couldn't. Most people would pay money for a protectionist military at the very least. Proving that the free market is able to decide what is essential.
    You're just making an assumption, which proves nothing. You can't say for certain how many people would pay or how much they would pay or if it would be enough to fund "essential" functions of the military.

    Either way, it doesn't have to be the military; it could be any government agency enumerated in the Constitution.

    I consider NASA to be part of the military, anyway.

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