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Thread: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

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    Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    (Reuters) - A challenge to California's gay marriage ban failed on Monday to qualify for the 2010 ballot, leaving gay activists mulling a 2012 push and hoping a federal court will overturn the measure before then...

    Courts and state legislatures have legalized same-sex marriage in five U.S. states and the District of Columbia, but popular votes have always rejected such unions, which are illegal in the vast majority of U.S. states.

    California voters in November 2008 ended a summer of court-allowed gay marriage by enacting a ban on same-sex unions by a 52 to 48 percent vote. The move by the trend-setting state enthused social conservatives and stunned lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender supporters nationwide..


    Gay marriage fails to get on California ballot | Reuters

    Sad they have to try and get the court system to override the 32nd time in a row gay marriage failed to pass a popular vote instead of accepting the will of the people.
    Last edited by texmaster; 04-12-10 at 11:16 PM.
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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    (Reuters) - A challenge to California's gay marriage ban failed on Monday to qualify for the 2010 ballot, leaving gay activists mulling a 2012 push and hoping a federal court will overturn the measure before then...

    Courts and state legislatures have legalized same-sex marriage in five U.S. states and the District of Columbia, but popular votes have always rejected such unions, which are illegal in the vast majority of U.S. states.

    California voters in November 2008 ended a summer of court-allowed gay marriage by enacting a ban on same-sex unions by a 52 to 48 percent vote. The move by the trend-setting state enthused social conservatives and stunned lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender supporters nationwide..


    Gay marriage fails to get on California ballot | Reuters

    Sad they have to try and get the court system to override the 32nd time in a row gay marriage failed to pass a popular vote instead of accepting the will of the people.
    I could really give a rats ass about what the majority thinks about the civil rights of a minority.
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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I could really give a rats ass about what the majority thinks about the civil rights of a minority.
    You should care very much about what people think of the definition of a word.

    Eventually people will come around to accepting our definition. Until then, the "civil rights trumps democracy" argument only holds weight if you believe that gay marriage is actually in the Constitution, which no court will uphold at this point.

    Of course, you realize that every civil rights law ever, plus ever civil rights Constitutional Amendment, was passed by a majority vote (or in the latter case, a supermajority). So I really don't get where that argument is going; I mean, if it's a civil right, who enforces it? It's either the Constitution, or a separate law.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    I'll never understand this. If that's what two people wanna do, let em. Not as if they're forcing you to be gay.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Sad they have to try and get the court system to override the 32nd time in a row gay marriage failed to pass a popular vote instead of accepting the will of the people.
    Should blacks have accepted the rulings of votes and courts pre-Civil Rights era? I mean, the will of the people was against them....
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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    You should care very much about what people think of the definition of a word.

    Eventually people will come around to accepting our definition. Until then, the "civil rights trumps democracy" argument only holds weight if you believe that gay marriage is actually in the Constitution, which no court will uphold at this point.

    Of course, you realize that every civil rights law ever, plus ever civil rights Constitutional Amendment, was passed by a majority vote (or in the latter case, a supermajority). So I really don't get where that argument is going; I mean, if it's a civil right, who enforces it? It's either the Constitution, or a separate law.
    Civil rights are not defined by the Constitution, but rather logically derived. Denying consenting adults equal access to the legal contract of marriage is unambiguously denying their right to equal treatment under the law without just cause. Coincidentally that is in the Constitution, but it's not a civil right because it is there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    You should care very much about what people think of the definition of a word.

    Eventually people will come around to accepting our definition. Until then, the "civil rights trumps democracy" argument only holds weight if you believe that gay marriage is actually in the Constitution, which no court will uphold at this point.

    Of course, you realize that every civil rights law ever, plus ever civil rights Constitutional Amendment, was passed by a majority vote (or in the latter case, a supermajority). So I really don't get where that argument is going; I mean, if it's a civil right, who enforces it? It's either the Constitution, or a separate law.
    Well anti-miscegenation laws were struck down in Loving v. Virginia in 1967, when approval for interracial marriage was less than 20%.

    And popular opinion was not in favor of it until after 1994:




    You can't rely upon the opinion of the majority to protect the rights of the minority.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 04-13-10 at 04:20 AM.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    I think the pro-GM movement will have to wait a while before re-initiating this dialogue. The fact that a public vote was so narrow shows that minds are changing. I think if they try again in 5-10 years they will succeed. Right now they are just annoying people with the political hoopla and blatant disregard for due process.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I think the pro-GM movement will have to wait a while before re-initiating this dialogue. The fact that a public vote was so narrow shows that minds are changing. I think if they try again in 5-10 years they will succeed. Right now they are just annoying people with the political hoopla and blatant disregard for due process.
    Due process at this point would be getting the SCOTUS to declare it as a matter of equal protection, but that may require the balance of power on the SCOTUS to shift and public opinion may be in favor of GM before then.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Due process at this point would be getting the SCOTUS to declare it as a matter of equal protection, but that may require the balance of power on the SCOTUS to shift and public opinion may be in favor of GM before then.
    I don't know. I am against DOMA and I don't think SCOTUS ruling on GM would be much better. I really want to see gay marriage or at least civil unions recognized across the board, but it has to be brought in properly. For now I think it is better to let the states decide.

    That said, this is obviously going to arrive on the desk of SCOTUS sooner than later. I just think it has the potential to backfire. Five states allowing GM is still a victory, I wouldn't want that to get tossed out at the Federal level.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Civil rights are not defined by the Constitution, but rather logically derived.
    No. If it's not a law, and it's not in the Constitution, then there's nothing there. God isn't going to come down and force people to hand out gay marriages.

    Denying consenting adults equal access to the legal contract of marriage is unambiguously denying their right to equal treatment under the law without just cause. Coincidentally that is in the Constitution, but it's not a civil right because it is there.
    It's a recognized civil right because it's there, yes. It only got there with a 2/3 vote in Congress. Otherwise, you couldn't even claim that gay marriage is a legally protected right.

    You can't rely upon the opinion of the majority to protect the rights of the minority.
    You don't have a choice. Especially in this case, when it's not a "right" being denied but rather a word being defined.

    You obviously don't care whether it's in the Constitution or not, so let's say for a sec that the 14th Amendment doesn't exist. If states must recognize gay marriages, who's going to force them to? Nobody can. You can't rely on the Magical Rights Fairy to enforce rights.
    Last edited by Dav; 04-13-10 at 07:35 AM.

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