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Thread: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    I've always thought this to be a state matter. If California doesn't want it, then that's that. The people have spoken.

    When SFPD start going into houses and beating innocent gays, I'll get involved.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I've always thought this to be a state matter. If California doesn't want it, then that's that. The people have spoken.

    When SFPD start going into houses and beating innocent gays, I'll get involved.
    There's one big problem with this statement. Reading it, it makes one assume that if interracial marriage were simply just not legal, and interracial couples were allowed to live together as they pleased, without being legally recognized as married, then that would be all right with you. The simple fact is that just because homosexuals haven't been persecuted as much as blacks were, doesn't mean that they don't deserve the same federal recognition of their marriage.

    Truthfully, I don't care if the first step was just getting federal recognition of civil unions (although I still see that as separate but equal), but our government does not even give a reason for supporting all heterosexual marriages the states endorse, but not supporting any homosexual marriages, despite the 14th Amendment.

    As I posted earlier, would it be okay for a state to make a law and/or state constitutional amendment that restricts marriage to those of the same religion? Interfaith marriages would not technically be protected by freedom of religion since there are many religions that don't even approve of such marriages.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Bottom line argument seems to be:

    Bigotry and discrimination are perfectly fine so long as the majority thinks it's OK.

    Got it.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    No. If it's not a law, and it's not in the Constitution, then there's nothing there. God isn't going to come down and force people to hand out gay marriages.

    It's a recognized civil right because it's there, yes. It only got there with a 2/3 vote in Congress. Otherwise, you couldn't even claim that gay marriage is a legally protected right.
    Laws have consequences, but they do not determine what is right and wrong. For example, Blacks didn't lack the right to be free when the Constitution allowed slavery, the right simply was not recognized. So it still comes down to whether something is logically a right or not, not whether it's in the Constitution or not.

    You don't have a choice. Especially in this case, when it's not a "right" being denied but rather a word being defined.

    You obviously don't care whether it's in the Constitution or not, so let's say for a sec that the 14th Amendment doesn't exist. If states must recognize gay marriages, who's going to force them to? Nobody can. You can't rely on the Magical Rights Fairy to enforce rights.
    This is only because our society culturally believes in utilizing democratic processes. Kings were able to legitimately rule by fiat in the eyes of the people when people believed in divine right. Someday democratic republics may also be replaced with a better alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    That kind of argument could be aimed at any alternative lifestyle. Think I could find one you wouldn't approve of even if they aren't forcing you?
    Only if that alternative lifestyle harms somebody against their consent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    And why is that exactly? It's not like you get to chose either one.
    It may be more useful to compare sexual orientation to religious affiliation. Religious affiliation certainly is a choice to a greater extent than sexual orientation, even conservatives can acknowledge that, yet we do not expect people to tolerate different legal treatment based upon religious affiliation.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Pedophiles are attracted to children. Should we grant them marriage privileges as well?
    Young children cannot consent to a contract, so the comparison is invalid.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 04-13-10 at 04:07 PM.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke
    As I posted earlier, would it be okay for a state to make a law and/or state constitutional amendment that restricts marriage to those of the same religion? Interfaith marriages would not technically be protected by freedom of religion since there are many religions that don't even approve of such marriages.
    I'd rather not see a state "make a law and/or state constitutional amendment" about anything. However, personally, I'd rather just see it all get passed and people finally shutting the f*ck up about it already. Having two dudes next door pound each other up the butt isn't half as annoying as people whining and clamoring and talking until they're blue in the face about letting two dudes next door pound each other up the butt.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Laws have consequences, but they do not determine what is right and wrong. For example, Blacks didn't lack the right to be free when the Constitution allowed slavery, the right simply was not recognized. So it still comes down to whether something is logically a right or not, not whether it's in the Constitution or not.
    That settles it then -- marriage is not a right.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That settles it then -- marriage is not a right.
    Privacy and equality are.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That settles it then -- marriage is not a right.
    Not inherently. But because of the fact that marriage is a legal contract, and because people have the right to be treated equally under the law unless there is a compelling reason not to (e.g. people who hurt others), gays do have the right to marriage.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    Bottom line argument seems to be:

    Bigotry and discrimination are perfectly fine so long as the majority thinks it's OK.

    Got it.
    Let's "pretend" for a moment that gay marriage is not enforced by the Constitution.

    The Constitution being the only thing that can trump the democratic process (even though, in a way, it's subject to the democratic process), what else is there to trump democracy? (Hint: nothing.)

    And there's some strawmen in your posts, too. Not making gay marriage legal is not bigotry, it's traditionalism. Not handing out gay marriages is fine only if you think it is; it's legal if a majority wants that to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Laws have consequences, but they do not determine what is right and wrong. For example, Blacks didn't lack the right to be free when the Constitution allowed slavery, the right simply was not recognized. So it still comes down to whether something is logically a right or not, not whether it's in the Constitution or not.
    Except this has nothing to do with right or wrong, it has to do with legal or illegal. I agree that allowing gay marriage would be the right thing to do. I disagree that there's some way to do it that circumvents the will of the people.


    This is only because our society culturally believes in utilizing democratic processes. Kings were able to legitimately rule by fiat in the eyes of the people when people believed in divine right. Someday democracy, too, may be replaced with a better alternative.
    Well okay, maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that as things stand, the will of the people matters, which was my point.

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    Re: Gay Marriage Fails to get on California Ballot

    Let's "pretend" for a moment that gay marriage is not enforced by the Constitution.

    The Constitution being the only thing that can trump the democratic process (even though, in a way, it's subject to the democratic process), what else is there to trump democracy? (Hint: nothing.)

    And there's some strawmen in your posts, too. Not making gay marriage legal is not bigotry, it's traditionalism. Not handing out gay marriages is fine only if you think it is; it's legal if a majority wants that to be the case.
    Every step away from civil liberties toward popular madate is a step from republicanism to populism.

    The only right the majority was supposed to have in this country is the ability to decide who our civil administrators will be. They aren't supposed to have any real authority over the law, which is no real sense can be contingent on the will of the people.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 04-13-10 at 04:30 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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