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Thread: Scott Brown snubs Sarah Palin, bags Tea Party rally

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    Re: Scott Brown snubs Sarah Palin, bags Tea Party rally

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I wouldn't say that, because the Tea Party I went to was before "Contract from America". I didn't see anything there about it. So, as much as Zyph and I are bashing each other in this thread, I still have an open mind, and would be willing to check it out. If it turns out like he said, then that certainly would change my opinion of the Tea Partiers, or at least, of some of them. What turns my stomach is the crap that I have seen, but doesn't mean that there aren't some REAL grass roots Tea Partiers out there, who are protesting over real issues, such as taxation, instead of protesting over BS, such as the birthers and deathers are doing. If these groups are kicking the birthers, deathers, and the crazy name callers to the curb, and actually tackling real issues, instead of personalities, then there might be something there that I could support. I am certainly willing to take a listen.
    Here is what I'd say Dana.

    First, despite the fact that in some states people have organized an independent party under its name, the "Tea Party" as a whole is not a political party. It is a political and ideological movement that is pushing for politicians to represent their ideals...be it on the republican ticket, libertarian, conservative, etc.

    Second, because of this what you're going to find is something similar to other political movements rather than parties...that you have people who support it and rally behind it that agree on the common interests of that movement but disagree on others. Much like the Anti-War movement could attract people who were pro-choice but anti-gun control or pro-life but pro-environmentalism or whatever else odd mix. That didn't mean the Anti-war movement was a Pro-Choice movement or an Anti-Gun movement, it just meant it had cross over.

    The Tea Party's philosophy advocates fiscal conservatism, limited government, and an attempt to returning to more strict following of the constitution. It is not a social movement. However, its tenets DO appeal to many Social Conservatives and the Religious Right and even some Neocons or even Democrats. So they grab onto the Tea Party for the things they share in common, but that doesn't silence them about the things that they feel that aren't part of the core ideology of the movement.

    Additionally, it is not a purely concentrated national effort but more of a loose confederation of multiple individual groups floating freely under a larger net. A Tea Party in Vermont may be organized and ran by a staunch libertarian while one in Texas could be ran by a Religious Right minister while still another two in Virginia could be within 100 miles of each other and one started by a moderate Republican and the other by a rather paleocon whose a hidden racist. In each case you'll likely find an underlining similar message...limited government, fiscal responsibility, a return to the constitution...but beyond that each will be shaped a bit by the person organizing it. Rather than look at the exceptions to the rule at each place I would say to get the real essence of the Tea Party movement would be to look at the message that is consistent through them all.

    That in part is what the Contract From America is. Its backed and pushed by a coalition of various state tea parties and organizations that agree with and foster the movements ideals. It is that baseline message, the core of the philosophy.

    And, sadly, like any group that gains large traction and gets a large voice you're ALWAYS going to have people that clamor onto it in hopes of using it and manipulating it without any real care for its meaning and message. Ultimately, for me, the Tea Party is not about any individual politician...certainly not Sarah Palin...but about a movement that is telling Republicans across the board that they had best start running as balanced conservatives focusing on fiscal and governmental matters and that when they're re-elected they best back up that talk.

    The Republican Party has supporters and hangers on that are crazy idiots. The Libetarian Party does. The Constitutionalists do. Neoconservatism does. Paleoconservatism does. Libertarian conservatism does. Conservatism as a whole does. As does liberalism. And just about any political group, party, or ideology.

    I generally don't judge a political entity solely on the basis of the crazies, even if that's what I've met first hand, unless there's overwhelming evidence that the crazies are the majority. You have, if nothing else, first hand accounts from numerous DP members...from right wingers that people can't stand to right wingers that others on the right call "phonies"...telling you they've gone to these things and the crazies were in the absolute minority. At the very least that should give pause to the notion that everywhere somehow its always the crazies in the majority.

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    Re: Scott Brown snubs Sarah Palin, bags Tea Party rally

    the one thing that unites the Taxed Enough Already's is OPPOSITION TO OBAMA

    they're, indeed, quite determined in their disagreement with the ditherer

    ie, not dubious

    they're opposed to obama, and they're opposed overwhelmingly
    Last edited by The Prof; 04-15-10 at 12:28 AM.

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    Re: Scott Brown snubs Sarah Palin, bags Tea Party rally

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Here is what I'd say Dana.

    First, despite the fact that in some states people have organized an independent party under its name, the "Tea Party" as a whole is not a political party. It is a political and ideological movement that is pushing for politicians to represent their ideals...be it on the republican ticket, libertarian, conservative, etc.

    Second, because of this what you're going to find is something similar to other political movements rather than parties...that you have people who support it and rally behind it that agree on the common interests of that movement but disagree on others. Much like the Anti-War movement could attract people who were pro-choice but anti-gun control or pro-life but pro-environmentalism or whatever else odd mix. That didn't mean the Anti-war movement was a Pro-Choice movement or an Anti-Gun movement, it just meant it had cross over.

    The Tea Party's philosophy advocates fiscal conservatism, limited government, and an attempt to returning to more strict following of the constitution. It is not a social movement. However, its tenets DO appeal to many Social Conservatives and the Religious Right and even some Neocons or even Democrats. So they grab onto the Tea Party for the things they share in common, but that doesn't silence them about the things that they feel that aren't part of the core ideology of the movement.

    Additionally, it is not a purely concentrated national effort but more of a loose confederation of multiple individual groups floating freely under a larger net. A Tea Party in Vermont may be organized and ran by a staunch libertarian while one in Texas could be ran by a Religious Right minister while still another two in Virginia could be within 100 miles of each other and one started by a moderate Republican and the other by a rather paleocon whose a hidden racist. In each case you'll likely find an underlining similar message...limited government, fiscal responsibility, a return to the constitution...but beyond that each will be shaped a bit by the person organizing it. Rather than look at the exceptions to the rule at each place I would say to get the real essence of the Tea Party movement would be to look at the message that is consistent through them all.

    That in part is what the Contract From America is. Its backed and pushed by a coalition of various state tea parties and organizations that agree with and foster the movements ideals. It is that baseline message, the core of the philosophy.

    And, sadly, like any group that gains large traction and gets a large voice you're ALWAYS going to have people that clamor onto it in hopes of using it and manipulating it without any real care for its meaning and message. Ultimately, for me, the Tea Party is not about any individual politician...certainly not Sarah Palin...but about a movement that is telling Republicans across the board that they had best start running as balanced conservatives focusing on fiscal and governmental matters and that when they're re-elected they best back up that talk.

    The Republican Party has supporters and hangers on that are crazy idiots. The Libetarian Party does. The Constitutionalists do. Neoconservatism does. Paleoconservatism does. Libertarian conservatism does. Conservatism as a whole does. As does liberalism. And just about any political group, party, or ideology.

    I generally don't judge a political entity solely on the basis of the crazies, even if that's what I've met first hand, unless there's overwhelming evidence that the crazies are the majority. You have, if nothing else, first hand accounts from numerous DP members...from right wingers that people can't stand to right wingers that others on the right call "phonies"...telling you they've gone to these things and the crazies were in the absolute minority. At the very least that should give pause to the notion that everywhere somehow its always the crazies in the majority.
    OK, that makes sense. And it does give me hope that the Houston Tea Party organizer who had the sign that said "niggar" was thrown out, and will never organize another event. So, at least, here in Houston, they are attempting to moderate their events, and this is what they need.

    The main problem with the Tea Partiers, as I see it, is that there are so many different groups with different philosophies. In attempting to wrest power from the Democrats, they are going to need to "gell" and come together on a common message. The excessive taxation message is well and good, but it is getting drowned out by a lot of other messages. If the Tea Party movement is going to gain traction, and not die out, their messages cannot be left to drown in "white noise". Look what Gingrich did, and he was successful, because his supporters stayed on message. Also, it is imperative that they kick the fringe to the curb. The fringe is part of what killed the Paul campaign in 2008. Finally, they have to be honest in their message. That means no fake plumbers who never had a plumber's license. Americans were too smart for that, and it is part of the reason McCain lost. If the Tea Party wants to move up, they cannot indulge in slick ad campaigns. They are going to have to speak honestly and from the heart.

    If they can do all that, then I think I could support them. However, I was really turned off by what I saw here. This was nothing like the Paul campaign at all.

    Now, you and I can argue from now until the cows come home about who is being honest, who is being dishonest, and other mundane things, but what will get done? Nothing. So I offer you an olive branch. Let's do this:

    1) Let's agree that the Tea Party movement has a good central idea - Lower taxes, smaller government, and more individual freedom - Sounds like the old Gipper, doesn't it?

    2) Let's agree that birthers, deathers, people screaming "Nazi", and the like, have no business in the Tea Party movement, but are detrimental to its well-being.

    3) Let's also agree that, like Newt in 1994, they need to stay on message, and not be distracted by..... well, distractions (LOL), and if they do so, they could be a powerful political force.

    4) Finally, let's agree that I will promise to have an open mind, and see what happens. And, if it is good (that is, they do the things I detailed above), I will join them.

    Like I said, I do have an open mind about this, despite what I have posted about them, but I hate the direction the Tea Partiers have been frequently pulled in, especially in Texas. If they show some real organization, along with some discipline, they could be an exciting force in politics. However, if they don't do what they need to do, I feel they will be a flash in the pan, having wasted their opportunity to do some good.

    Fair enough?
    Last edited by danarhea; 04-15-10 at 12:46 AM.
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    Re: Scott Brown snubs Sarah Palin, bags Tea Party rally

    Indeed. I agree with your assertion about Paul, fringers, and the Tea Parties. At the same time I think its a difficult rode to pave and I felt that way with Paul. Idiots and crazies that you give attention to, even negative attention, just feeds their activities and exposes them to more people. Its a tricky situation.

    I also agree with the on message but at the same time don't know how it will work. One of the things that has made the Tea Party a success is also what's causing that trouble. It is a national movement made up of grass root individual localized groups (granted, some of which are less "Grass roots" than others). To much centralization and it feels less personalized and more like a sterile typical political machine.

    I simply am hoping that even disjointed, the general message is loud enough to wake the GOP up to the notion that it is a balanced message, focusing as much on both the fiscal and governmental ends of conservatism as it does on any of the social or military matters and if they neglect it again, in campaigning or in governance, then the likelihood of a mass migration from the party is far greater than previously.

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    Re: Scott Brown snubs Sarah Palin, bags Tea Party rally

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Indeed. I agree with your assertion about Paul, fringers, and the Tea Parties. At the same time I think its a difficult rode to pave and I felt that way with Paul. Idiots and crazies that you give attention to, even negative attention, just feeds their activities and exposes them to more people. Its a tricky situation.

    I also agree with the on message but at the same time don't know how it will work. One of the things that has made the Tea Party a success is also what's causing that trouble. It is a national movement made up of grass root individual localized groups (granted, some of which are less "Grass roots" than others). To much centralization and it feels less personalized and more like a sterile typical political machine.

    I simply am hoping that even disjointed, the general message is loud enough to wake the GOP up to the notion that it is a balanced message, focusing as much on both the fiscal and governmental ends of conservatism as it does on any of the social or military matters and if they neglect it again, in campaigning or in governance, then the likelihood of a mass migration from the party is far greater than previously.
    Not too much centralization, but some national leaders who can pound home the points that need to be pounded home. The right leaders can provide the leadership the movement needs. No, there will never be another Reagan, but there are some good people out there who can be examples to follow. Let them stand up and lead.

    Anyways, let's have a beer...... Oops, make mine a root beer. I am on probation, you know. LOL.
    Last edited by danarhea; 04-15-10 at 01:01 AM.
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    Re: Scott Brown snubs Sarah Palin, bags Tea Party rally

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    the one thing that unites the Taxed Enough Already's is OPPOSITION TO OBAMA

    they're, indeed, quite determined in their disagreement with the ditherer

    ie, not dubious

    they're opposed to obama, and they're opposed overwhelmingly
    But Obama has not raised taxes so why is it that "they" were not oppsed to spending and growth of government and a TARP being thrown on us before 14 months ago ?
    I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us f107HyperSabr

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    Re: Scott Brown snubs Sarah Palin, bags Tea Party rally

    you'd have to ask them

    but they sure don't seem to like obama, whatever the cause

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    Re: Scott Brown snubs Sarah Palin, bags Tea Party rally

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    you'd have to ask them

    but they sure don't seem to like obama, whatever the cause
    And that is much of their problem. Many of them have been running a campaign of "personality" instead of a campaign of issues. Thus, the issues have been getting lost. The issues are what it is going to take to get people to listen, not the crazy. At least, there is now evidence that Tea Partiers want to tackle issues, and the crazies in the group are beginning to be marginalized, which is what is needed here.
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    Re: Scott Brown snubs Sarah Palin, bags Tea Party rally

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    And that is much of their problem. Many of them have been running a campaign of "personality" instead of a campaign of issues. Thus, the issues have been getting lost. The issues are what it is going to take to get people to listen, not the crazy. At least, there is now evidence that Tea Partiers want to tackle issues, and the crazies in the group are beginning to be marginalized, which is what is needed here.
    When you bring in the word "ringers" such as the Palins and Bachmeans and Palin recycles and retreads the "community organizer " bumper sticker yes it is "personality" and not issues. Even the "we want to take our country back" implies that it was Obama who took "our" country.

    Yet if one thinks about it isn't the country also Obama's, and mine, and yours, and the steel worker who is rebulding our rusted out bridges!!
    I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us f107HyperSabr

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