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Thread: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

  1. #41
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    Re: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I berate polls in certain situations. We do not legislate based on polls. Polls about how popular a bill is is of limited use. Tracking polls are of more use, especially for societal trends. Polling leading up to elections are certainly interesting, especially as we get close to election time.

    By the way, don't think it is not pretty obvious how you attacked me for my statement, instead of actually disagreeing that we do not legislate on polls. Funny how often you do things like that...
    Still can't admit you made a false claim about your use of polls.

    Incredible.
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    Re: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

    Really, because nothing you've quoted shows Reddress suggesting laws should be changed because of a Poll. I see Polls being used to speak about public views, or to counter peoples statements of how people feel, but not that the laws should be changed simply because the public says "X" in some random poll.

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    Re: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Really, because nothing you've quoted shows Reddress suggesting laws should be changed because of a Poll. I see Polls being used to speak about public views, or to counter peoples statements of how people feel, but not that the laws should be changed simply because the public says "X" in some random poll.
    Let it go. This is just something he does. I disagree, he says I am lying to change the subject. You get used to it, and I need to stop rising to the bait.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Really, because nothing you've quoted shows Reddress suggesting laws should be changed because of a Poll. I see Polls being used to speak about public views, or to counter peoples statements of how people feel, but not that the laws should be changed simply because the public says "X" in some random poll.
    Again, look at the last 2 examples. In both cases she is arguing to change the law on gay marriage and both examples she uses polls to boost her argument to that effect.
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    Re: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Let it go. This is just something he does. I disagree, he says I am lying to change the subject. You get used to it, and I need to stop rising to the bait.
    I only say you are lying when you make claims that do not exist or you claim something that is directly opposite to what you previously said.
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    Re: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Again, look at the last 2 examples. In both cases she is arguing to change the law on gay marriage and both examples she uses polls to boost her argument to that effect.
    Sadly I couldn't look at the last two you posted. One's 50 pages long, one


    The one in the thread "Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly" was not advocating that the law be changed because of the poll numbers. It was expressing shock that the poll numbers were that high. How in the world you get that saying "WOW, those were higher than I thought" equals "Wow, I now believe we must change the law specifically because this poll says so" is beyond me, or anyone actually looking at this honestly.

    Your link for the one in "Health Care Bill has passed" so not searching 30 pages on that.

    In regards to the quote you posted for th thread "New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill" (BTW, if you quote these things right it helps to make your argument not look like you're hiding something. Having to search through 17 pages because you don't quote it right is frustrating) again, no where is Redress advocating changing the law because of a Poll. Redress was pointing out that according to Polling data the American peoples views on homosexuality has became more and more moderated in regards to the morality of it and that based on that fact they believe the laws will end up changing.

    Note, there is a LARGE difference between saying "The law should change because the majority of people in this poll approve of changing it" and "I think eventually the laws are going to end up changing as more and more people begin to think in a certain way, as evidenced by 'X' poll".

    In one case you're advocating for a new law based on the poll. In the other case you're saying you think eventually that laws will changed based on the publics views on the issue.

    To put it another way....

    Saying "The Health Care Bill should be over turned because 58% of the people want it overturned" is saying that the law should be altered BECAUSE of a poll. Saying "The Health Care Bill will likely be over turned in the coming years since those that want its repeal has shown a steady increase, from 54% to 58%, and I believe that will continue" is citing a trend and making an assertion based on it.

    Lets continue looking

    In the thread you linked "Obama reaffirms will end "Don't ask Don't tell" again, redress's statement was not saying change the law based on a Poll. Redress was using a poll to show that someones assertion on why the law shouldn't change, countering Fiddlytree's statement that "I think it is an exaggeration to say 'The American people' are open to this."

    Fiddly tried to made an opinion, his belief it was an exaggeration. Redress provided facts to show that his opinion was likely wrong, and that it may not be an exaggeration to say the "American People" are open to it. This is not to say that is why the law should change, but simply responding to an argument someone else had made.

    In not a single, solitary post you quoted was there evidence of Redress suggesting that a Law should be changed or made based simply on the outcome of a Poll.

    The ONLY way you can criticize Redress as being hypocritical or wrong in their statement earlier is if you read their statement as a LITERAL statement, suggesting that they NEVER use polls in any way, in which case I'm eagerly awaiting to see you jump into the Rush Limbaugh thread and demand he get his ass down to Costa Rica.

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    Re: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Its clear Redress was speaking about using Polls for to make laws. Navy responded with his statement about posting a poll if it helps Redress. To which Redress, likely thinking back to the context of what Navy was responding to, wanted to know where they've ever posted a poll to suggest it should be the basis of creating a law.

    Its clear, using context, that redress is not saying they will never or have never used a poll in an argument. That's idiotic. What they're saying is that they don't push for laws based simply on what a poll says.
    Not to beat up on Redress, but if that were the "context" in which she was arguing, isn't it strange it wasn't mentioned (whatsoever) in the half dozen or so responses?

    From what WAS mentioned, it seems rather clear she was simply arguing that she doesn't "cite polls" - period.
    Last edited by Taylor; 04-13-10 at 02:54 PM.

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    Re: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Not to beat up on Redress, but if that were the "context" in which she was arguing, isn't it strange it wasn't mentioned (whatsoever) in the half dozen or so responses?

    From what WAS mentioned, it seems rather clear she was simply arguing that she doesn't "cite polls" - period.
    Not really, look at the first response to Tex:

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Interesting, one of those times I acted at surprise at a poll result some one else mentioned, the other two I was replying to some one posting poll numbers. Funny how you managed to dishonestly neglect to mention that.
    Note the shock and intrigue. Notice how the counter she used to his statements ONLY works if she's countering it based on her assertion that you don't change laws based on polls.

    If Redress had meant "I don't cite polls, ever" then what she said above would not have been a defense. It wouldn't matter that one was acting surprised and the other was replying to someone posting poll numbres...it still would've been Redress citing polls.

    HOWEVER

    If Redress was arguing in the context that their statement was in regards to using Polls to make Laws then it suddenly makes sense, as Tex tried to present those threads as "proof" that's what Redress does without giving context and Redress provided the context to show that no, they don't prove that Redress was lying or a hypocrite, because when you look at what the polls were used for it was clear it wasn't to make or change a law.

    So from the very first post it was clear that the context Tex was using was literal while Redress was contesting it from the notion that they were talking about using it for laws.

  9. #49
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    Re: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Note the shock and intrigue. Notice how the counter she used to his statements ONLY works if she's countering it based on her assertion that you don't change laws based on polls.

    If Redress had meant "I don't cite polls, ever" then what she said above would not have been a defense. It wouldn't matter that one was acting surprised and the other was replying to someone posting poll numbres...it still would've been Redress citing polls.
    I believe that when she says "cite polls" she means she doesn't bring them to the thread. See for example all of her responses in this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress
    1) I was surprised at the result someone else mentioned
    2) I was replying to someone else’s
    3) I responded to polls that were linked by others so I didn’t cite them
    4) Caught me responding to polls that OTHERS posted
    5) Show me where I CITE polls; responding to other peoples polls not the same thing
    6) You caught me responding to polls others cited
    You'll see the common element is that she "responds to other peoples polls" - THAT'S the defense - not some implied "you don't change laws based on polls" reasoning. (Hell, show me anyone that believes we should change laws simply based on polls!)

    Of course "citing" a poll simply means you use it to bolster your argument (whether or not someone else mentioned it first). Texmaster has clearly showed instances where she cited polls.

    (Are we really talking about her like she's not here? )
    Last edited by Taylor; 04-13-10 at 03:14 PM.

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    Re: Health Care Law Support for Repeal of Health Care Plan Up To 58%

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    When the poll is about the popularity of a law, probably. We don't make laws based on polling data. You know as well as I that if it was a republican president and congress passing an unpopular law(it happens), and a democrat posting the poll numbers, the first thing Tex and that bunch would do is explain how we do not govern by polls. Hell, President Bush the younger specifically used that line.
    Nothing about the importance of the poll was said before you decided to come in and make a straw man.

    The poll might mean all sorts of things. To say that it doesn't have ANY implications would certainly be ignorant (for the Bush II example you used, just look at 2006). But to come in solely to say that opinion polls don't make laws, without anyone having said that and without even bothering to discuss the ACTUAL implications of the poll, is borderline trolling.
    Last edited by Dav; 04-13-10 at 04:40 PM.

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