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Thread: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It is however, one reason war should be avoided if possible. The willingness to enter a war too readily leads to these types of things, which is why our leaders deserve more criticism than they have received.
    Agreed. However, that is not the topic of this thread, nor the fault of the military.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Still, even saying that, war isn't a blank check to do anything. There are still lines and the question will be and should be did these people cross any line.
    Of course not. Civilian deaths from this war isn't even approaching civilian deaths during, say WWII though. It's something to be avoided, though not at the expense of our forces or the mission.
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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Agreed. However, that is not the topic of this thread, nor the fault of the military.



    Of course not. Civilian deaths from this war isn't even approaching civilian deaths during, say WWII though. It's something to be avoided, though not at the expense of our forces or the mission.
    I don't think the level matters that much to this topic. One death wrongly inflicted would still be wrong. The question here rests on whether these soldiers crossed the line or not. I can't answer that, so I haven't tried to. But that would be the question and being at war would not excuse them if they crossed the line and there was no circumstance that fully explained it.

    As for our leaders, they share in the responsibility, so their mention is appropriate IMHO.

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't think the level matters that much to this topic. One death wrongly inflicted would still be wrong. The question here rests on whether these soldiers crossed the line or not. I can't answer that, so I haven't tried to. But that would be the question and being at war would not excuse them if they crossed the line and there was no circumstance that fully explained it.

    As for our leaders, they share in the responsibility, so their mention is appropriate IMHO.
    The "line" is necessarily a little blurry in a combat situation. These are our guys fighting in a hostile environment. As long as they didn't knowingly and intentionally fire at civilians, I don't see much of an issue.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    The "line" is necessarily a little blurry in a combat situation. These are our guys fighting in a hostile environment. As long as they didn't knowingly and intentionally fire at civilians, I don't see much of an issue.



    Exactly, it's a non issue. If they thought thier lives were on the line, and acted in good faith, there is no issue.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I totally support our military efforts in Afghanistan, but incidents like this make me question if our military can be trusted to prosecute a war without killing innocent people. What rules of engagement could possibly justify opening fire on a crowded bus?

    U.S. Troops Fire on Afghan Bus, Killing at Least 5 Civilians - NYTimes.com
    You need to move past the headline and check out the details. Let's get into those details:

    The American-led military command in Kabul called the killings a “tragic loss of life” and said troops fired not knowing the vehicle was a bus and believing that it posed a threat to a military convoy clearing roadside bombs from a highway.
    The sad truth is that the first time they do not respond, American lives are going to be lost.

    The shooting in Kandahar occurred just after daybreak...
    Notice this important detail. It was probably not very bright out yet, visibility was down.

    It said “an unknown, large vehicle” drove “at a high rate of speed” toward a slow-moving NATO convoy that was clearing mines from the highway. The convoy could not move to the side of the road to let the vehicle pass because of a steep embankment. Troops then used a flashlight and three flares to try to warn the driver, who did not respond.

    “Perceiving a threat when the vehicle approached once more at an increased rate of speed, the patrol attempted to warn off the vehicle with hand signals prior to firing upon it,” the statement said. “Once engaged, the vehicle then stopped.”
    Holy ****, this does not sound like some slaughter of the innocent, but soldiers doing everything they can to not have to shoot, being ignored, and doing what had to be done to protect their own lives and their mission.

    I wonder what General McChrystal has to say about this type situation...

    “We really ask a lot of our young service people out on checkpoints because there’s danger, they’re asked to make very rapid decisions in often very unclear situations,” General McChrystal told troops during a video conference last month.
    Now, this situation is tragic. No one is going to argue that. There may be ways to change how we do things to better avoid these situations, and considering McChrystal puts winning hearts and minds as a key to victory over there, I am willing to bet it will be looked at. The facts are disputed in this case, which means no one knows really, including you Will, whether the soldiers acted appropriately. I would guess they did, and I will take the words of our troops on this, they are trained to be situationally aware.

    Stop and think about this again, best guess is you have a large vehicle of unknown purpose approaching at a high rate of speed a convey out clearing mines. Another convey is close. Attempts are made to signal the vehicle to stop. It does not. What are you going to do in that situation Will? Take the chance of losing a large chunk of a convoy and risk the lives of our young men?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    The "line" is necessarily a little blurry in a combat situation. These are our guys fighting in a hostile environment. As long as they didn't knowingly and intentionally fire at civilians, I don't see much of an issue.
    We can't say what they knew at this point, but I would dispute that. Again, they are not give free rein to do anything. They have rules of engagement, and must follow those rules. Some circumstances may well explain and midigate, but killing innocent people will always and should always be an issue. It will be an issue for those young men even if they had reason and they crossed no lines. Pretending otherwise is not fair to them either.

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Exactly, it's a non issue. If they thought thier lives were on the line, and acted in good faith, there is no issue.
    The key word is if. Neither of us can know at this moment, but if is the key word. And like I said, even if that is true, knowing they killed innocent people will have an effect on them, making it an issue.

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The key word is if. Neither of us can know at this moment, but if is the key word. And like I said, even if that is true, knowing they killed innocent people will have an effect on them, making it an issue.


    I give them, US troops, our brothers and sisters the benefit of the doubt.... there is no "if" in my book at this point.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We can't say what they knew at this point, but I would dispute that. Again, they are not give free rein to do anything. They have rules of engagement, and must follow those rules. Some circumstances may well explain and midigate, but killing innocent people will always and should always be an issue. It will be an issue for those young men even if they had reason and they crossed no lines. Pretending otherwise is not fair to them either.
    I never said free reign. I gave rules about the level of risk I was comfortable with our forces taking before firing on someone. If they know someone is a civilian and they intentionally shoot them, that's bad and should be punished. Any other situation...as long as it's not habitual, I'm not the one being shot at on a daily basis. I'm not going to judge what they need to do to feel safe and get back to their families.
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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The key word is if. Neither of us can know at this moment, but if is the key word. And like I said, even if that is true, knowing they killed innocent people will have an effect on them, making it an issue.
    The odds of them not acting in good faith, that they intended to smoke a few civies, is slim to none. That does not mean mistakes where not made, they may have been, But they still acted in good faith to try and perform their duty and do the right thing.

    Trust me, this will be investigated. The military loves to investigate things. People will look for ways to improve the way these soldiers handle the situation, either by showing the soldiers involved where they made those mistakes, or by changing the rules if appropriate. It is one of the things the military does, and it's why we have the best military in the world.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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