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Thread: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Probably more realistic than blase. And no one is saying they shouldn't be avoided, though at all costs is a little extreme. Anyone who thinks war can be conducted without civilian causalties is ignoring history.
    Suggesting civilian casualties are to be 'expected' is blase. Suggesting there is a possibility of incidents involving civilians is more in-line with procedure. There is a difference.

    Paul
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    Why so serious?

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Not at all, only when there's possible danger. Not being able to distinguish friend from foe, even women and teenagers could they potentional bombers or shooters, in revenge for those friends or relatives who were killed earlier. It's Always better to be safe than sorry.

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    I'm not following you at all. Could you clarify your position, please?
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  3. #143
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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by gunner View Post
    Suggesting civilian casualties are to be 'expected' is blase. Suggesting there is a possibility of incidents involving civilians is more in-line with procedure. There is a difference.

    Paul
    Do you happen to know how many wars have been fought without civilian casualties? I initially thought Desert Storm since we had so few casulaties ourselves, but there was actually 3500 directly from the war. So, every war in human history has civilian casualties. A realistic person would say civilian deaths are to be expected in any future wars based on that information. A blase person would say cilivian deaths don't matter. I think that's an important distintion.
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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Yes ever war has civilian casualties, which is good reason to avoid them if possible (I know, we've touch on this before).

    But it still goes back to the mission. If the mission was just defeat the enemy and take land, collateral damage makes more sense (though I hate the term as it is too PC to accurately reflect what is happening). However, the mission requires winning hearts and minds, and that is hard to do if civilians are killed too regularly.

    As I have said, I have no reason to doubt the soldiers at this time, and they likely behaved within the rules. But the mission suffers from these events and that is also true.

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes ever war has civilian casualties, which is good reason to avoid them if possible (I know, we've touch on this before).

    But it still goes back to the mission. If the mission was just defeat the enemy and take land, collateral damage makes more sense (though I hate the term as it is too PC to accurately reflect what is happening). However, the mission requires winning hearts and minds, and that is hard to do if civilians are killed too regularly.

    As I have said, I have no reason to doubt the soldiers at this time, and they likely behaved within the rules. But the mission suffers from these events and that is also true.




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  6. #146
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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    You said this before? I missed it. But good to see you coming to your senses.
    Yes, I said it before.

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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Do you happen to know how many wars have been fought without civilian casualties? I initially thought Desert Storm since we had so few casulaties ourselves, but there was actually 3500 directly from the war. So, every war in human history has civilian casualties. A realistic person would say civilian deaths are to be expected in any future wars based on that information. A blase person would say cilivian deaths don't matter. I think that's an important distintion.
    I can see why you would think that. Would it surprise you to know the British lost more too friendly fire [from American pilots] than from the Iraqi forces.

    A very important distinction.

    It may just be a difference between American and British attitudes. For one, our 'Rules of engagement' have generally been far more defined, with less room for ambiguity.

    Paul
    Last edited by gunner; 04-13-10 at 05:46 PM.
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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, I said it before.



    Could you link to it please, I looked, and can not find it. Thank you.
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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by gunner View Post
    Civilian deaths should never be 'expected'. what a blase attitude to take, on something that should be avoided at all costs. If 'Rules of engagement' procedures are followed correctly, it can keep incidents to a minimum and civilian casualties should be unexpected.

    Paul
    You are playing a semantics game. History and the realities of the situation make it so they are "expected". We can guess safely they will happen. We do work as hard as possible to make them as unlikely as possible, within the framework of the mission.
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    Re: US troops fire on Afghan bus, killing at least 5 civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes ever war has civilian casualties, which is good reason to avoid them if possible (I know, we've touch on this before).

    But it still goes back to the mission. If the mission was just defeat the enemy and take land, collateral damage makes more sense (though I hate the term as it is too PC to accurately reflect what is happening). However, the mission requires winning hearts and minds, and that is hard to do if civilians are killed too regularly.

    As I have said, I have no reason to doubt the soldiers at this time, and they likely behaved within the rules. But the mission suffers from these events and that is also true.
    Well sure the mission is going to affect how many casualties are acceptable. Aside from the fact that I think "hearts and mind" is just a PR campaign, it's not as though the civilian population is making it any easier for us. And realistically, they're killing far more of each other than we're killing of them.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

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