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Passenger tried to ignite shoe on United Airlines flight

All this guy did was smoke on an airplane and have brown skin. The first carries a $3000 fine, the second is not illegal yet.

Kick him out of the country? Jesus Christ.
 
Oh make no mistake. My mind is absolutely made up about this enemy. I know who it is and I know that the vast majority of my enemy merely act as comfort for those who pick up the vests and AKs. I know this, because I make it a point to understand the world I've deployed into since 1993.
See that certainty scares me, because to be so certain about such an uncertain situation tells of a lack of understanding about the situation.

And are we at war with China? Are we at war with the pissed off world? Any non-Muslim nations breeding non-Muslim enemies? There's some people in France that hate us too. Are they our enemy? This politically correct weakness that people are parading about is pathetic. You get no where by refusing the identity of your enemy simply because you don't want to be a "racist" or a religion basher (Clinton politics at its best).
China has actually engaged in several subtle acts aimed at the US, mostly digital attacks but hostile actions none the less. China DOES hate the US, this shouldnt be news. Now why arent you slobbering paranoia over China?

1) We are not at war with China! We are prepared as any good military should be, but our enemies are not Chinese! What is it with you people and the great bogeyman? The Defense Industry has sold billions of dollars worth of programs to idiot politicians ever since the Berlin Wall came down over the prospect of a war with China. They even convinced themselves that we should prepare for wars that we want to fight instead of wars that we are going to fight (in 2003 civilians freaked out over the lack of body armor, but had no sense of criticisms towards the gross spending towards F/A-22s to fight China with.) This is a nation that needs us as much as we need them. Besides that, a war with China would be won because they are landlocked and it would not be what people imagine.
China has a massive military, economic ties to virtually every other country in the world, and a very dedicated population. China does not need the US.

2) Because until you civilians were attacked on 9/11, none of you gave a damn about the military personel dying in embassies, ships, and barracks.
You mean the FIRST attack on the WTC meant nothing?

Clinton's policy on intel reports was that no religion was to be "bashed" and therefore reports from the Pentagon and the CIA were watered.
Proof?

This is the whole damn point. People want to pretend that there aren't a lot if you consider the population of Muslims around the globe, but just 1 damn percent is a million. You fear a war with a million man Chinese Army, but not a war with a million terrorists in plain clothes who's only goal is the struggle to please God?
Because there are far less than a million terrorists in the world and there's plenty we can do to cut their legs out from under them.

The argued number among experts vary (nowhere near a million), but it only took 18 to kill 3,000 didn't? This is what happens when we underestimate this enemy and reduce them to nothing as compared to a fantasized Chinese threat. This is why morons were shocked and bewildered on 9/11 when our enemy sported turbans and a Quran, not chopsticks and Su-27s. Some people are still looking to dismiss the enemy upon us for the fantasized war with China aren't they?
If you paid attention to events in the Far East, you'd know that there's simmering tension between the US and China over Taiwan and we are currently allied with Taiwan for economic reasons. China likes to try and throw their weight around with Taiwan to try and tempt a fight where Taiwan looks like the aggressor. This is very basic Asian geopolitics.

There have been attempts to kill Americans by foreign fighters before and there will be in future. The only difference between Ata and his group was they got lucky and their plan worked well.

Oh it's not that simple. The Sunni tribe is the region's problem. Even with Iran existing, it's the backward religiously oppressed nations of the Sunni Arabs that produce our enemy. Islam has developed into a religion that caters towards the Sunni Tribe and not towards God over the centuries. Wahhabism is a Sunni creation. Even Khomeini, who blessed suicide bombings as divine and as a tribute to God, has been surpassed by the Sunni tribe, which has inherited the idea of the divinity of the suicide vest.
Except that many prominent Sunni reject the idea that Wahhabism is a sect of Sunni Islam.

How has Islam developed into a focus on the Sunni faction?

Well of course they don't corner the market. Who said they did?
You seem to be implying it

Again...politically correct nonesense. Islam is not unique in it's religious zealousy. But are we talking about the Crusades or are we talking about the present? Are we really trying to exonerate the Islamic tidal wave of international violence today because a Christian killed an abortion clinic doctor in his own country a few years back?
No one is attempting to exonerate anything or taking about the Crusades.

This is rediculous.
Is it now? **Smirk**

Culture is fate. You have just summerized the disease behind the symptoms. And yes.... 9/11, Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Bashir, countless youth looking to kill themselves for reward, Hezbollah, Qutb, Muslim Brotherhood, etc. are all symtpoms.
And I think it's astoundingly stupid to assign those symptoms to Islam. There are several factors in play and again it ignores the fact that the majority of Muslims live peaceful and quiet lives, regardless of what they think.

Well of course it's the case. Where have you been? And guess what? All Sunni or Sunni loyalists. In Somalia they rolled with the war lords and killed Muslims. In Sudan, they assisted Bashirs men in the slaughter of non-Arab Muslims and Christians. In Iraq, they were the driving force of the Sunni insurgency that targetted Shia Muslims (between 30% and 40% of all suicide bombings in the early years of Iraq were claimed by Zarqawi.) They have targetted Muslims in the Phillipines over U.S. Marines because they are easier targets. In Afghanistan they target Muslim schools where women are teachers and Muslim villages that have proven to lean towards a non-Tali-Ban prescription.
And how much of this is due to political leanings or religious ideas? The Taliban is a political movement and Al-Qaeda is deeply involved in the political processes of different countries. They are a religious movement, but their focus is, for the time being, mainly political.

Study harder? You just haven't figured it out yet have you? I'm aware of this region. I've obsesssed over it for almost two decades.
So I see, however obsessing over trying to justify a hatred is not conducive to an education.

I've seen it over and over. I've also seen the apathy and the utter conflict of determining what a "good" Muslim is from one country to the next. You make a Western mistake in assuming your outlook on life is the same as another region's. "Family ties," which is a kind way of stating "Tribal and Clan ties," is precisely why this region is absolutely screwed up and a mass producer of religious terror.
You seem to be determined to treat the Middle East as if it's a special case and what happens there doesnt happen anywhere else for any other reason.

Ego? Survival mode? I don't care if this entire region goes directly to hell in a ball of flames tomorrow. The problem for me is that their wrecked societies are effecting my countrymen and until they fix it they will be a threat upon them.
And this, to me, says you arent coming at this from any impartial or reasonable direction. You are looking for reasons to justify hating Islam and using a confirmation bias to dig yourself in.

Continuing a discussion of this nature with you is pointless because your mind is already made up. I am not prepared to waste my time throwing bricks in the Grand Canyon.
 
Violating a smoking ban is hardly grounds for banishing someone from the country.

But he was from Qator...:roll:
 
Moderator's Warning:
Knock off the personal attacks.
 
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All this guy did was smoke on an airplane and have brown skin. The first carries a $3000 fine, the second is not illegal yet.

Kick him out of the country? Jesus Christ.

He was a smartass who thought his diplomatic immunity would protect him, so he smoked in the airplane bathroom and then made smart remarks about lighting his shoe on fire. How is this 27 year old moron qualified to be a diplomat? He was not kicked anywhere, his government recalled him. I'm sure he will be re-assigned to some local social service position more appropriate for his qualifications.
 
Just heard, the savage was off to visit a convicted terrorist....


Air Marshals should have shot the mother****e. :shrug:
 
Just heard, the savage was off to visit a convicted terrorist....


Air Marshals should have shot the mother****e. :shrug:

American diplomats visit Americans who are jailed overseas. It is customary practice for diplomats to visit their citizens who are jailed abroad to ensure that their rights are safeguarded and that they receive due process. Sometimes diplomats go beyond that role.For example, they can make efforts to try to overturn the outcome of a legal process, which is fairly common when citizens are convicted for narcotics-related offenses in nations where such crimes are capital offenses, even when the legal process has been fully transparent and due process has occurred.

Smoking on an airplane, though illegal, is not a capital offense. It is also not a rare situation, with 696 persons having been cited over the past 5 years.

A bad or tasteless joke is not a capital offense either. None of the news accounts following the incident indicated that passengers or air crew ever felt threatened.
 
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He was a smartass who thought his diplomatic immunity would protect him, so he smoked in the airplane bathroom and then made smart remarks about lighting his shoe on fire. How is this 27 year old moron qualified to be a diplomat? He was not kicked anywhere, his government recalled him. I'm sure he will be re-assigned to some local social service position more appropriate for his qualifications.

If someone is 27 and a diplomat then obviously they have been kicking ass at their profession early.
 
If someone is 27 and a diplomat then obviously they have been kicking ass at their profession early.

Not necessarily... his daddy may gotten him in, his family may be rich, he may be a robot drone kiss-ass for the existing regime. There's lots of other ways to be a diplomat and assuming they're good at what they do may not be the only reason.
 
Teabagees just love government intrusion, seems teabagees don't mind taking thier shoes off for underpayed federal bufoons... I guess it makes sense as it is a form of "taking it" :ssst:

You must disdain teapartiers more than I thought. Seems like instead of people picking things they hate about the tea'rs ya guys instead pick anything you dont like and say, "Yep... Thats the tea party." Matching his sarcasm just to get your lil "Teabaggers are gay" jab in?
 
If someone is 27 and a diplomat then obviously they have been kicking ass at their profession early.

Or more likely in the Mideast, he got the position through family connections.
 
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No the Russians do not have McVeigh's because our boy McVeigh atacked his own people and his own government. The "Russians" at thsi point in time are being slapped back by the captive people who the Russians incorporated by force into the Russian empire. These minorty populations such as the Chechens only want to "TAKE THEIR COUNTRY BACK" so they are patriots but it's the Russians who are the terrorists. The fact that the Chechens are Mus;im is an accident of history. The fight is the people who deserve to be free and independent against the terrorist barbaric imperialistic Russians. Nothing else.

It's a Soviet/Russian problem to be solved by them. I belive you are smart enough to have grasped my point.


It seems there's a lot of "accidents of history" these days considering the degree of Muslim involvement everywhere. But, people deserve to be free? Does this extend to the Middle East too?
 
See that certainty scares me, because to be so certain about such an uncertain situation tells of a lack of understanding about the situation.

It's only uncertain to the ignorant who have decided that an illusion is easier than the reality.

China has actually engaged in several subtle acts aimed at the US, mostly digital attacks but hostile actions none the less. China DOES hate the US, this shouldnt be news. Now why arent you slobbering paranoia over China?

Because we are not at war with China. What is it with your obsession with a fantasized war with China? I guarantee if you enlist you won't be deployed to China. We have friction with China and others. In the end this is all there is.

China has a massive military, economic ties to virtually every other country in the world, and a very dedicated population. China does not need the US.

China is invested in a healthy U.S. and relies heavily on selling goods to the U.S. China is as much stuck to this uneasy contract as the U.S. And China's military is landlocked, without experience, and without proper combined arms training. What are you afraid of? Do you really think China is going to put America to the test and attack Taiwan? Or that America would deploy into a mass war with China over Taiwan? How long did it take to deal with Russia over Georgia? China is not trying to disrupt their economic stability with the U.S. anymore than we want to disrupt ours with them.


You mean the FIRST attack on the WTC meant nothing?

You tell me. The FIRST attack on the WTC was treated as a criminal effort and set apart from everything the military was going through. It wasn't until 9/11 that civilians gave a damn about finally striking back. By that time plenty of terrorist attacks upon military personnel went unavenged.


Do yourself a favor....

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/America-Between-Wars-11/dp/1586484966]Amazon.com: America Between the Wars: From 11/9 to 9/11 (9781586484965): Derek Chollet, James Goldgeier: Books[/ame]

Asking me for "proof" of this is like telling me I have to prove we need oxygen. Quick little Google searches for wisdom is why so many people are wandering about in the dark.

Because there are far less than a million terrorists in the world and there's plenty we can do to cut their legs out from under them.

Which is what we were finally allowed to do since civilians died on 9/11. And in the year 2010, no Chinese attacks have occurred. How much you want to bet that in 2020 the Defense Industry and people like you will still be preaching of the great American/Chinese War to come?

If you paid attention to events in the Far East, you'd know that there's simmering tension between the US and China over Taiwan and we are currently allied with Taiwan for economic reasons.

Sounds like more crap people will rally behind in the moment, but criticize us for our position later for. "Simmering" tensions behind these matters is a fact of life.


Except that many prominent Sunni reject the idea that Wahhabism is a sect of Sunni Islam.

The fact that plenty have not rejected it or have merely celebrated complacency towards the rhetoric is exactly why we have an enemy and not a few "rogues" of Islam. Focus on the shop keepers and sheep herders if you will. I'll focus on my enemy.


How has Islam developed into a focus on the Sunni faction?

Here...

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Islam-Muslims-Reform-Faith/dp/0312326998]Amazon.com: The Trouble with Islam: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith (9780312326999): Irshad Manji: Books[/ame]

First you have to match up the very similar paths of Christianity and Islam. Until the Protestant movement, Christianity was written in Latin only and ultimate power over the soul was given to the clergy (absolve and damnation). Furthermore, the center of Christianity was towards Rome. Everyone agrees that this religious control was much about maintaining power and order.

Now flip over to Islam, which has not had a reformation. This is where people become "politicially correct" and refuse to analyze and take a good look. The center of Islam is Mecca, the center of the Arab tribe . All face Mecca to pray. All are instructed to pray in Arabic. Now if God is everywhere as the Qu'ran instructs, why must Muslims pray towards a specific place? If God can speak all tongues as the Qu'ran states, why must Muslims pray in Arabic?

Sunni Arabs have spent centuries looking down upon other tribes of Muslims because Muhammad was one of them. And since the Prophet was one of them, then it becomes legitimate that all should cater towards the Sunni way. It was the Sunni in the Arab deserts that denied the Ottoman Caliphate its attempts to reform the religion and develop.

In the 20th century, Islam, as an organizing tool, began to fail. The onset of nationalism and secularism bewildered the diehard of Islam and fanaticism began to emerge. People like to place blame on the West, especially America, for all the region's troubles, but all blame goes to the inability of the Sunni culture to rise above its own damaging insecurities. All bad decisions in the Middle east can be traced right back to Sunni instigations and creations. Ever notice how quiet Muslims in the Middle east are when non-Arabs are being slaughtered? The Middle Eastern media virtualy ignored Sudan. It places all blame in Iraq upon American hands even though it is the Sunni that slaughters. The failed Arab/Israeli Wars have all been Sunni driven. Losing the religious importance of Iraq to the Shia was of more importance to Arab nations than deposing the dictator that slaughtered Muslims. No Arab government has truly addressed the Sunni extremist organizations in their midst unless they threaten their local governments.

And to this day, the "power of the mosque" in Islam remains, well after the "power of the church" in Christianity waned. And this power goes directly to centuries old Sunni prescriptions.

And I think it's astoundingly stupid to assign those symptoms to Islam.

You're just not getting this. It's not hard if you remove yourself from the politically correct position of denial. They are assigned...pause for effect...to "Middle Eastern" cultural prescriptions. Ever notice that the further Muslims get away from this region the healthier and more successful they are? This is true for all three monotheistic religions. Christianity became truly powerful once it was evicted out of the Middle East and developed civilization in Europe. Jews became extremely successful in Europe before Europeans scapegoated them for everything. But what of Islam in the Middle East?

Once the capital of the sciences, Sunni Arabs turned back the clock immediately after the Crusades. The real victors of the Crusades weren't Arab Muslims. They were Muslim Ottoman Turks (converts). The culture that has spawned out of the heartland of Islam is soaked in stagnation and blame. A lack of sincerety towards education and progression. A general confusion of what a "good" Muslim means as they are bombarded with religious fundamentalism and throwbacks to Muhammad examples of violence.

The proper conclusion is that Islam has a Middle Eastern problem....not the other way around. There is a clear disease in this region. Terrorism is its symptom.

There are several factors in play and again it ignores the fact that the majority of Muslims live peaceful and quiet lives, regardless of what they think.

And how many Russians lived peaceful and quiet lives during the Cold War? How many Japanese never saw the war until Hiroshima and Nagasaki? yet we had our enemies didn't we? It's not "what I think" rather than what I know. Your political correctness has you denying what this enemy is.



And how much of this is due to political leanings or religious ideas? The Taliban is a political movement and Al-Qaeda is deeply involved in the political processes of different countries. They are a religious movement, but their focus is, for the time being, mainly political.

The Middle East is full of organizations that see slaughter in the name of God. So much destruction and hatred summed up by a "political leaning?" Even after 9/11 people still wish to pretend that our problems start and stop with one bearded man and his exaggerated justifactions to wage a war for God. read up on Qutb. Most Islamic terrorists are very familiar with him and his opinions of "God's enemy."

So I see, however obsessing over trying to justify a hatred is not conducive to an education.

Neither is denial. I hate what I see. What have you seen?

You seem to be determined to treat the Middle East as if it's a special case and what happens there doesnt happen anywhere else for any other reason.

Are you absolutely blind? The Middle East is a special case. Nowhere on earth is there another region so infested with tribal hatred, slaughter, and brutality. Nowehere on earth is there such a plethora of organizations funded by citizens all over the world and by governments. Nowhere in the world is such a mass of people so united in intense religion as the Middle East. And nowehere in the world is "God" such a motivating factor behind their politicial perversions. You have Western governments, western military and intel organizations, and even educated Muslims speaking out against what the Middle East is and you pretend that you have it figured better than they?

You seem to want the Middle East to be something it is not even against the tidal wave of in your face reality.

And this, to me, says you arent coming at this from any impartial or reasonable direction. You are looking for reasons to justify hating Islam and using a confirmation bias to dig yourself in.

You remain in the dark because you belive criticizing the Middle East means hating Islam. Islam isn't the exact problem. The exact problem is the Middle East itself and the Sunni culture. There are prominent Muslims writers who write all about this. Ever hear of Vali Nasr? Irshad Manji? Perhaps they just hate Islam too, huh? You speak of education but deny yourself the reality.


Continuing a discussion of this nature with you is pointless because your mind is already made up. I am not prepared to waste my time throwing bricks in the Grand Canyon.

Continuing a discussion with me over these matters is pointless because you don't have the proper background to have one. You exist on probablies, maybes, ifs, and certainlies. You simply don't know what you are talking about and assume to defend your imagination.
 
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If someone is 27 and a diplomat then obviously they have been kicking ass at their profession early.

.....Nepotism is an accepted Arab prescription. It's holdover from the Caliphate system.
 
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I thought he was white

I thought that he was an Arab so what are Arabs ? White or Sand ? Not being funny I didn't think that Arabs were Caucasian, but I could have recieved bum info.
 
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I thought that he was an Arab so what are Arabs ? White or Sand ? Not being funny I didn't think that Arabs were Caucasian, but I could recieved bun info.

Color is a very useful tool in the ME (and others).

There are very light skinned and dark skinned Arabs. Some look white. The same is true for Jews in Israel who come in all colors. But propogandous posters regarding the evils of Israel or America will always show a white man. The opposite was true in Germany where posters depicting Jews were usually not of "white" people.

The ME has their own version of the "white man keeping them down."
 
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.....Nepotism is an accepted Arab prescription. It's holdover from the Caliphate system.

Yeah, because the Rashidun Caliphs were all selected by nepotism. What ignorance of history:

Caliph Umar said:
"May God curse you for tempting me to nepotism by nominating my son, when I am going to meet my Creator. The caliphate is an affair affecting the entire Muslim community, and I would not like to make it an hereditary affair in my family. I swear by God that I never coveted the caliphate for myself. Therefore what I never coveted for myself, I would not like to pass on to my family. If the caliphate is something good, then by holding the office for the last ten years, I have had the blessing for my family. If the caliphate is bad, then why should I pass on this bad thing to my family? God is my witness that during my caliphate I showed no favor to my family members. On the other hand, I was more hard with them than with the other Muslims. I have always tried to fulfil the obligation of the office under the shadow of the fear lest I may at any stage falter in the performance of my duties. I do not know whether I have succeeded in my purpose, but I will be happy if my achievements and failures just balance so that I am neither rewarded nor punished for holding the office of the caliphate. Remember ye men that if I nominate a successor, a better man than me, namely Abu Bakr also nominated a successor. And again if I do not nominate a successor, remember that the best of men, namely the Holy Prophet of Islam did not nominate a successor. Whatever the case Allah Himself would protect the interests of Islam and the Muslim community".
 
Color is a very useful tool in the ME (and others).

There are very light skinned and dark skinned Arabs. Some look white. The same is true for Jews in Israel who come in all colors. But propogandous posters regarding the evils of Israel or America will always show a white man. The opposite was true in Germany where posters depicting Jews were usually not of "white" people.

The ME has their own version of the "white man keeping them down."

I know that Lebanese are "White" and they are Arabs.
 
It's a Soviet/Russian problem to be solved by them. I belive you are smart enough to have grasped my point.


It seems there's a lot of "accidents of history" these days considering the degree of Muslim involvement everywhere. But, people deserve to be free? Does this extend to the Middle East too?

It is an internal Russian matter, but there are two forces at work here.

1. The Russians had a long history (~150 years) of being ruled by Muslims. this is something that still burns in their collective memory.

2. The Muslim areas in the south believe that they have a right to independence, and in a manner, they DO have a point. Like the way the Chinese have treated Muslims in East Turkestan, the Russians have been less than magnanamous toward the Muslims in their south. At one time, it was understandable due to previous Muslim rule of much of Russia, but now from their authoritarian regime, it really isn't.
 
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