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Thread: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

  1. #151
    Educator Alvin T. Grey's Avatar
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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Those tribes occupy territory, which they control each amongst themselves.

    War is essentially about grabbing land and the things in and on the land.
    Conventional warfare? yes. However there are other reasons for going to war. Ethnicity, religion, revenge, football......


    I think the people who wrote those Conventions, like the people who wrote the Constitution, figured that war was so obviously the province of nation-states that it just didn't bear repeating.
    Nope. They didn't mention the fact that war was specifically between nation states because that would defacto make conflicts between nation states and their own population (civil war or insurgency) or with other groups who are either not recognized states or states who haddn't signed the relevant accords not subject to the GCs.

    The only way to make it enforcable across all possible spectrums of warfare is to leave it as Armed parties, and signatories and non signatories. Which is what they did.

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    If it's that clear-cut, then a courtroom proceeding should go swiftly and find in the government's favor, which means there's no valid reason for them to avoid doing this the right way.
    The man left the country and sided with our enemies, so it is pretty clear that individual is no longer an American.So as a foreigner our constitution does not apply to him.



    I thought that our troops signed up voluntarily to risk their lives for truth, justice, and the American way.

    I do not think any of them signed up to basically serve arrest warrant to a terrorist scumbag. Shooting a terrorist scumbag yes, serving arrest warrants no.



    What could possibly be more American than respecting the lofty ideals upon which this nation was founded, no matter how dirty the deed done to us?
    Our constitution does not apply to foreigners let alone foreign enemies.Which is what that man is since he left US soil to join up with some of our enemies.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #153
    Educator Alvin T. Grey's Avatar
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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Our constitution does not apply to foreigners let alone foreign enemies.Which is what that man is since he left US soil to join up with some of our enemies.
    Your Constitution applies to anyone you can detain. Until they are detained, you can kill them all you like. But once in US Custody they get covered by a competant tribunal.

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    Conventional warfare? yes. However there are other reasons for going to war. Ethnicity, religion, revenge, football......
    At which point it is not warfare. It is genocide, ethnic cleansing, sectarian violence, murder. A crime, not a war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    Nope. They didn't mention the fact that war was specifically between nation states because that would defacto make conflicts between nation states and their own population (civil war or insurgency) or with other groups who are either not recognized states or states who haddn't signed the relevant accords not subject to the GCs.
    It is then not war, as I listed above.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The man left the country and sided with our enemies, so it is pretty clear that individual is no longer an American.So as a foreigner our constitution does not apply to him.
    First off, someone accused of siding with our enemies is accused of treason and is still entitled to due process of law.

    Second off, there are many circumstances under which the Constitution applies to foreigners within our borders and in our custody.


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I do not think any of them signed up to basically serve arrest warrant to a terrorist scumbag. Shooting a terrorist scumbag yes, serving arrest warrants no.
    They signed up to protect and defend the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Our constitution does not apply to foreigners let alone foreign enemies.Which is what that man is since he left US soil to join up with some of our enemies.
    Yeah, it does. Read it again, in many places it says "persons," not "citizens."
    Last edited by TacticalEvilDan; 04-08-10 at 11:46 AM.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    Your Constitution applies to anyone you can detain. Until they are detained, you can kill them all you like. But once in US Custody they get covered by a competant tribunal.
    Sure, the government is free to commit murder if it so chooses.

    That's what it is if the government shoots a civilian without an imminent threat of lethal force.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  7. #157
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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    A quick summary of what applies with respect to U.S. citizens:

    1. When one is a combatant, one is governed by the Laws of War. The U.S. Supreme Court has already ruled that U.S. citizenship does not shield U.S. citizens from the consequences of belligerency. Hence, a U.S. citizen who is a combatant is a legitimate military target as a combatant. There is no immunity from a combatant's being targeted.

    2. When a combatant is hors de combat, that individual is also covered by the Laws of War. At the same time, a U.S. citizen who is hors de combat is entitled to trial by a military commission. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on that issue.

    3. When a civilian (as distinguished from a combatant) who is a U.S. citizen is captured and has been aiding an enemy (but not in a role that makes him/her a combatant under the Laws of War), that citizen must be tried through the normal judicial process, not a military commission. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled on that matter during the Civil War.

    The American cleric, in question, is presently a combatant, as he is serving a command-and-control function within Al Qaeda. In that capacity, he is a legitimate military target. If he is captured or surrenders, among other scenarios, then he is rendered hors de combat. As such, he would be entitled to a trial by military commission.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 04-08-10 at 11:41 AM.

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    Educator Alvin T. Grey's Avatar
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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    First off, someone accused of siding with our enemies is accused of treason and is still entitled to due process of law.

    Second off, there are many circumstances under which the Constitution applies to foreigners within our borders and in our custody.




    They signed up to protect and defend the Constitution.



    Yeah, it does. Read it again, in many places it says "persons," not "citizens."
    Those quotes are JRs. Not mine.

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    Educator Alvin T. Grey's Avatar
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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    [quote=TacticalEvilDan;1058672501]Sure, the government is free to commit murder if it so chooses. [\quote]
    If it's a legitimate target, and organizing and abbeting terrorism in todays America would indeed qualify, then yes.

    That's what it is if the government shoots a civilian without an imminent threat of lethal force.
    If said civillian is engaged in subersive behaviour against the Federal Government, then yes. They can be shot if arrest is impossible.
    Last edited by Alvin T. Grey; 04-08-10 at 11:46 AM.

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    Those quotes are JRs. Not mine.
    Sorry about that, I copy-pasted wrong. I shall fix.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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