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Thread: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

  1. #141
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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    His citizenship means he has Constitutional rights which cannot be denied without due process.

    It doesn't say "unless he's a really scary angry guy who wants to kill us."
    He could be tried in absentia.
    Last edited by Thorgasm; 04-08-10 at 06:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    fyi Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    You asked: How is it not a violation of the 5th Amendment to hunt down and execute an American citizen without a trial?

    Your question presupposes that unlawful combatants (as defined by the Geneva Conventions) are entitled to a trial, which they are not. Article Six of the Constitution incorporates treaties made under the authority of the US government and gives them the full force of law; in this case, the Geneva Conventions, and not the Fifth Amendment, would be the relevant legal text in determining the status of the Cleric.
    There is no such designation in the GCs.

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    Then why spend money on trials just kill all the ones in custody. Unless it is only US citizens we kill
    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    So kill US citizens and give foreign terrorist a trial. How many in Gitmo surrendered?
    *Sigh*
    Look it's this simple. The relevant sections of the GC that apply to those in Gitmo do not apply to this guy.

    Why?

    Because he is currently not in US custody.

    Until he is, you are free to kill the snot out of him if he is a legitimate target. However if arrested things get complicated.

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    It means that if the government wants to strip you of your rights, all it has to do is decice that you're an unlawful enemy combatant, or making war against the United States, or giving aid and comfort to the enemy, or any number of similarly seditious accusations, and then treat you as if you had no rights to speak of.?
    I agree with most of your entries on this issue in relation to individual rights I only disagree in this one instance this one man because the facts are against him. Your above points are very valid and agreeable and we should be weary of such violations of our rights.
    But in response to your above statement I do have to say you are talking about future desires of government? I see it differently those rights have long came and went since 9/11 and the activation of the patriot act. Those things already happen to American citizens. Great post but we are a little to late to understand it in terms of already established government. We can change direction but only if people like you continue to persist heavily in pointing out the flaws of such ideologies and legislations.

  5. #145
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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    If the President derives his authority to hunt down this cleric from the Constitution, then as a citizen of the United States this cleric enjoys the protections afforded any citizen by the Constitution.
    If that cleric left the country and sided with out enemies then it is pretty clear that man is no longer an American,therefore he should be treated no different than any other foreign terrorist that our troops can not easily get to.If he wanted to be treated as an American then perhaps he should not have left the country. I do not want troops risking their lives just to arrest the traitor.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 04-08-10 at 10:32 AM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    It also says "crime" and "criminal case", which obviously doesn't apply to warfare.
    The statement about due process stands on its own. The grammar is clear.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  7. #147
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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    War can be declared by any group of people; tribes in Africa have warred with one another since the beginning of human history.
    Those tribes occupy territory, which they control each amongst themselves.

    War is essentially about grabbing land and the things in and on the land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    Ultimately, a nation-state is just a nominal social entity surrounded by invisible and arbitrary lines
    On its own soviergn piece of land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    it exists only in the abstract
    On its own soviergn piece of land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gander View Post
    Not to mention the fact that the Geneva Conventions do not limit warfare to nation-states.
    I think the people who wrote those Conventions, like the people who wrote the Constitution, figured that war was so obviously the province of nation-states that it just didn't bear repeating.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    He could be tried in absentia.
    I'm not comfortable with that, but I am significantly more comfortable with that than I am with sending a death squad after him.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtprocess View Post
    I agree with most of your entries on this issue in relation to individual rights I only disagree in this one instance this one man because the facts are against him.
    I do not trust in any way any of the "facts" presented about this man.

    We have courts of law and swear oaths to tell the truth when giving testimony and evidence in them for a reason -- it lends gravity to the proceedings, and there is a very real penalty for deception.

    Politicians and functionaries and bureaucrats lie all the time to save their own ass because quite often there are no palpable consequences for lying if you're not under oath when you do it.

    Furthermore, judges are supposed to be non-political referees when it comes to the giving and examining of evidence in a courtroom. When it's the President's men presenting "facts" to the press, there are no such impartial referees.

    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtprocess View Post
    But in response to your above statement I do have to say you are talking about future desires of government? I see it differently those rights have long came and went since 9/11 and the activation of the patriot act. Those things already happen to American citizens.
    When I see things like this in the news, I feel compelled to argue against them, if nothing else so that maybe a few people will consider my words and not complacently accept the government's authority to do whatever it feels like doing.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If that cleric left the country and sided with out enemies then it is pretty clear that man is no longer an American
    If it's that clear-cut, then a courtroom proceeding should go swiftly and find in the government's favor, which means there's no valid reason for them to avoid doing this the right way.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I do not want troops risking their lives just to arrest the traitor.
    I thought that our troops signed up voluntarily to risk their lives for truth, justice, and the American way.

    What could possibly be more American than respecting the lofty ideals upon which this nation was founded, no matter how dirty the deed done to us?
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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