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Pope's preacher compares abuse row to anti-Semitism

danarhea said:
Actually, it is you who is misinformed. But don't take my word for it. Read about the Catholic Church's infallibility from the Catholic Encyclopedia.
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It only applies when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" which is very rarely.

From New Advent -- which you linked...
•the infallibility claimed for the pope is the same in its nature, scope, and extent as that which the Church as a whole possesses; his ex cathedra teaching does not have to be ratified by the Church's in order to be infallible.
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ludahai said:
It only applies when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" which is very rarely.

From New Advent -- which you linked...
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It does make him infallible, according to the Church. I maintain that the Pope is merely human, like the rest of us. The only infallible person to have ever lived is Christ.
 
danarhea said:
It does make him infallible, according to the Church. I maintain that the Pope is merely human, like the rest of us. The only infallible person to have ever lived is Christ.
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It only makes him infallible when he speaks ex cathedra on faith and morals. It does not make him and everything he says and does infallible.
 
ludahai said:
It only makes him infallible when he speaks ex cathedra on faith and morals. It does not make him and everything he says and does infallible.
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From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

From Holy Scripture, as already stated, the special proof of the pope's infallibility is, if anything, stronger and clearer than the general proof of the infallibility of the Church as a whole, just as the proof of his primacy is stronger and clearer than any proof that can be advanced independently for the Apostolic authority of the episcopate.
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Let me also add, how can the Pope speak on faith and morals, after having helped to hide pedophilia within the Church? Actions speak louder than words. It is not what we say that defines us, but what we do.
 
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danarhea said:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:



Let me also add, how can the Pope speak on faith and morals, after having helped hide pedophilia in the Church. Actions speak louder than words.
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To my knowledge, this pope has yet to speak ex cathedra. It is a rare thing. Please understand ex cathedra and the meaning of papal infallibility before making these comments.

From New Advent:

Explanation of papal infallibility
The Vatican Council has defined as "a divinely revealed dogma" that "the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra — that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church — is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church's consent" (Densinger no. 1839 — old no. 1680). For the correct understanding of this definition it is to be noted that:
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Definition of ex cathedra:

Ex Cathedra
Literally "from the chair", a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable." (See INFALLIBILITY; POPE.)
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ludahai said:
To my knowledge, this pope has yet to speak ex cathedra. It is a rare thing. Please understand ex cathedra and the meaning of papal infallibility before making these comments.

From New Advent:



Definition of ex cathedra:

Ex Cathedra
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Yes, when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, according to the Catholic church, then he is just as infallible as Jesus Christ. So, after covering up child molestation, should he speak ex cathedrea, he will only be showing that he is not infallible, even then.

Again, we are not defined by what we say. We are defined by what we do.
 
danarhea said:
Yes, when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, according to the Catholic church, then he is just as infallible as Jesus Christ. So, after covering up child molestation, should he speak ex cathedrea, he will only be showing that he is not infallible, even then.

Again, we are not defined by what we say. We are defined by what we do.
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So, are you admitting you were wrong in your earlier claims? The times the pope speaks ex cathedra is exceedingly rare.
 
Not being a member of this particular Church, I am unable to cite anything regarding it's rules.
To me if this Pope in an earlier post did ignore a Pedophilia Priest then he deserves to resign.
True we are all fallible including this man, where we apparently differ is our admission of our faults and our acceptance that we be responsible for the results of those faults.
Thus far Vatican number 2 and Pope's personal preacher admit they have wronged/erred/sinned.
There has been no sign of punishment or contrition from any of them.
All they seem intent on doing is to shift the blame from their own Priests onto the Priests Victims and then onto the International Media.
From what we have seen coming from those who run this Church, they apparently do not see that they need to answer not only to those they pray to but also the living who are expected (by them) to obey their various tenets.

I personally would feel disgusted at being expected to receive the Mass from someone who has ignored Pedophilia in the various offices he has occupied.
 
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There is a well established tradition of Anti-Catholicism in America. It originally came from the Protestant majority, but today it mainly emanates from the intolerant left. Anti-Catholicism is a socially acceptable and politically correct prejudice to hold today.

Having said that, there is a ton of hypocrisy in the Church. The hierarchy seems to be riddled with maladjusted misfits. There is a lack of health within the Church.
 
Does Catholic celibacy contribute to child sex abuse?
Link to this article
BBC News - Does Catholic celibacy contribute to child sex abuse?

Very likely is my opinion.


Quote (With the Roman Catholic Church facing a series of paedophilia scandals, some observers have begun to ask whether the tradition of celibacy in the priesthood has contributed to child abuse)

Quote(Typical of the kind of comment Catholic leaders would have preferred not to have faced,was a contribution to a recent ZDF television discussion programme by Professor Klaus Beier, head of the Institute of Sexology and Sexual Medicine at Berlin's Charite Hospital.

"If you are already struggling with a conflicted sexuality, including paedophile tendencies, then it is attractive to become part of an institution that obliges you to be celibate," he said.

"I have seen many of these cases... and it is something the Catholic Church should be made aware of." )

Very difficult to think of the possible cause of Paedophillia when the Church if not condone it, certainly seems to prefer to sweep it under the papal rug so to speak.

quote(More surprising has been the contribution to the debate of senior figures from inside the Church, including Hamburg Auxiliary Bishop Hans-Jochen Jaschke, who seemed to add fuel to the fire of those making a connection between priestly celibacy and paedophilia.
He was quoted as saying that the "celibate lifestyle can attract people who have an abnormal sexuality and cannot integrate sexuality into their lives.")

Well I suppose someone in this Church is thinking about it. Shows a little promise.


quote(But even those outspoken Catholic rebels who have long called for a discussion about the future of celibacy - including Father Hans Kung, a contemporary of the Pope and well-known thorn in the side of the Vatican - have distanced themselves from any attempt to link paedophile offences and priestly vows of chastity.)

On the other hand, perhaps not!
 
MyOwnDrum said:
There is a well established tradition of Anti-Catholicism in America. It originally came from the Protestant majority, but today it mainly emanates from the intolerant left. Anti-Catholicism is a socially acceptable and politically correct prejudice to hold today.

Having said that, there is a ton of hypocrisy in the Church. The hierarchy seems to be riddled with maladjusted misfits. There is a lack of health within the Church.
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How ironic that the institution that has been responsible for anti-semitism for so many years is saying this is similar.

I guess when you call the leader of your group infallible you have to blame others for your problems.
 
washunut said:
How ironic that the institution that has been responsible for anti-semitism for so many years is saying this is similar.

I guess when you call the leader of your group infallible you have to blame others for your problems.
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First statement is not as true as many anti-Catholics would like to believe it to be.

Second statement is completely inaccurate as we don't hold the Pope to be infallible in everything, only in the rare cases he speaks ex cathedra.
 
jujuman13 said:
Link
BBC News - Pope's preacher compares abuse row to anti-Semitism

Quote from article
(Pope Benedict's personal preacher has compared criticism of the pontiff and Church over child abuse to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews)

I think there is no possible comparison between a regime that murdered over 9 Million people and a Church that now seeks to blame the objectors who object to pedophilic acts committed on children throughout the world.

Quote from article
(Vatican spokesman the Rev Federico Lombardi later contacted the Associated Press news agency to say Father Cantalamessa was not speaking as a Vatican official.

He said such a comparison could "lead to misunderstandings and is not an official position of the Catholic Church".)


It was the vicar of Christs PERSONAL PREACHER who made that statement, one presumes he believed it. At the time he made this statement he did not state it was a personal remark.


Quote from article
(But Stephan Kramer, general-secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews, described the remarks as offensive and repulsive.

"So far I haven't seen St Peter's burning, nor were there outbursts of violence against Catholic priests," he said.

"I'm without words. The Vatican is now trying to turn the perpetrators into victims.")

A German Archbishop calls for a 'New Start'
After 2000 years of this religion he wants a new start.

IMO this religion should be banned.
Pedophilic acts on children have a nasty habit of being perpetrated by those same children when they themselves reach maturity.
Not every child who is treated such, but certainly a significant number.
This Church should either be banned outright or at the very least change it's rules regarding having unmarried males as it's Priests.
It is unnatural for men to go through life without some outlet for their sexuality.
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Typical papal evasion tactics. The Pope is being called to account for the crimes of his priests and lacks the courage to admit there were issues.

This is nothing but papal cowardace.
 
ludahai said:
So, are you admitting you were wrong in your earlier claims? The times the pope speaks ex cathedra is exceedingly rare.
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This is an important clarification. Most people don't realize that the Pope is only considered 'infallible' in very limited and rare circumstances, not in all things.
 
Vader said:
Typical papal evasion tactics. The Pope is being called to account for the crimes of his priests and lacks the courage to admit there were issues.

This is nothing but papal cowardace.
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No one is saying that there WEREN'T problems. Note that all of these allegations occurred years, even decades, in the past, BEFORE new rules and procedures were put in place by the previous Pope in conjuction with Cardinal Ratzinger (the current Pope Benedict XVI). Nearly all Catholics I know are concerned about these problems in the priesthood, but also recognize that these were in the past and the fact that the very institutions that oppose the church's message for today's world are involved in continuing to spread this and harp on it.
 
MyOwnDrum said:
There is a well established tradition of Anti-Catholicism in America. It originally came from the Protestant majority, but today it mainly emanates from the intolerant left. Anti-Catholicism is a socially acceptable and politically correct prejudice to hold today.

Having said that, there is a ton of hypocrisy in the Church. The hierarchy seems to be riddled with maladjusted misfits. There is a lack of health within the Church.
Click to expand...

I do not see "Anti-Catholicism in America" as a desease of the left. Anti-Catholicism is wide spread down South and they are pron not to be on the left. Anti-Catholicism is also alive and well in other parts of the bible belt nlot just the South. Many of us Chatholics of every politcal stripe want the Church to come clean and purge and punish those priests who committed those henous acts and also punish the bishops and other BIG HATS who covered it up.

I do think that the Pope actually was personaly involved in a coverup but let's face it the BIG HATS knew that evil was going on and in the macro sense did not much to stop it.
 
F107HyperSabr said:
I do not see "Anti-Catholicism in America" as a desease of the left. Anti-Catholicism is wide spread down South and they are pron not to be on the left. Anti-Catholicism is also alive and well in other parts of the bible belt nlot just the South. Many of us Chatholics of every politcal stripe want the Church to come clean and purge and punish those priests who committed those henous acts and also punish the bishops and other BIG HATS who covered it up.

I do think that the Pope actually was personaly involved in a coverup but let's face it the BIG HATS knew that evil was going on and in the macro sense did not much to stop it.
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You're right. I've personally experienced anti-Catholicism in the workplace, and it came from Protestants. I don't live in the South either...
 
ludahai said:
So, are you admitting you were wrong in your earlier claims? The times the pope speaks ex cathedra is exceedingly rare.
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Let me put it this way - The pope speaking in ex Cathedra is just as fallible as a wino uttering the exact same words, while stoned on Thunderbird. :mrgreen:
 
MyOwnDrum said:
You're right. I've personally experienced anti-Catholicism in the workplace, and it came from Protestants. I don't live in the South either...
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I picked on the South a bit since I have family down there who inter-married with Southeners and one of them who is married to my Sister - Law told me as if he really beleived that he was saying something intelligent " I do not have a problem with __________ going to a Chathlic Church". My Sister-in Law is Chatholic and Jethro is a good ol boy Protestant and his "training "in anti- Catholicism came right out.

It's just like the race thing used to be. As a kid I remember people saying real dumb stuff such as " I am not prejudice, some of my best friends are Colored". Sure they are !!! Yup right here up North it ain't just a Southern thing !!!
 
danarhea said:
Let me put it this way - The pope speaking in ex Cathedra is just as fallible as a wino uttering the exact same words, while stoned on Thunderbird. :mrgreen:
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Oh come on now we don't use Thunderbird in Church anymore it's Merlo !!! but the Italian Churches use Chianti !!
 
ludahai said:
No one is saying that there WEREN'T problems. Note that all of these allegations occurred years, even decades, in the past, BEFORE new rules and procedures were put in place by the previous Pope in conjuction with Cardinal Ratzinger (the current Pope Benedict XVI). Nearly all Catholics I know are concerned about these problems in the priesthood, but also recognize that these were in the past and the fact that the very institutions that oppose the church's message for today's world are involved in continuing to spread this and harp on it.
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Catholics only seem concerned with protecting the senior clergy of their Church.

Those who continue asking questions do so because the problem of Pedophilia is a continuing problem.

It also seems obvious that those who run this church have no intention of changing the behavior of themselves and their clergy.

Were the World to see some form of contrition by Pope this matter might have gone away.
But no, all we got was some idiot trying to blame it on Anti Semnitism, another idiot suggesting the Media were to blame, and his Holiness doing sweet F**k all.
All you are doing by defending the indefensible is proving what we the critics say is true.
 
ludahai said:
First statement is not as true as many anti-Catholics would like to believe it to be.

Second statement is completely inaccurate as we don't hold the Pope to be infallible in everything, only in the rare cases he speaks ex cathedra.
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Most people laugh at the assertion the church has not spewed hatred for hundreds of years.

Here is something you can help me with, how was the track record of Poland during WWII. Why were so many concentration camps set up in that country.

I am not anti-catholic, just saying what most of the world understands to be obvious.
 
danarhea said:
Let me put it this way - The pope speaking in ex Cathedra is just as fallible as a wino uttering the exact same words, while stoned on Thunderbird. :mrgreen:
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1. That is NOW what you said originally. So, is this a retraction of your original statement.

2. I disagree with this statement as well, but at least it isn't based on the gross fallacy of your original one.
 
jujuman13 said:
Catholics only seem concerned with protecting the senior clergy of their Church.
I believe you are wrong here. Most Catholics I know are aware of and concerned about the problem and want it addressed in a fair and rational manner consistent with Canon and secular law.

Those who continue asking questions do so because the problem of Pedophilia is a continuing problem.
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However, the Church has put measures in place to try to mitigate the chance of this happening in the future. That was put in a few years ago. All of the cases I have heard of in this rash of abuse claims date from PRIOR to those new measures being put in place. It doesn't mean that it will be 100% proof against the problem, but it DOES show that the Church is concerned about it.

It also seems obvious that those who run this church have no intention of changing the behavior of themselves and their clergy.
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It seems obvious that you have some timeline problems here.

Were the World to see some form of contrition by Pope this matter might have gone away.
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There HAS been contrition from this Pope. You are too blinded by your hatred for him and Catholicism to see it.

But no, all we got was some idiot trying to blame it on Anti Semnitism, another idiot suggesting the Media were to blame, and his Holiness doing sweet F**k all.
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He was not blaming it on anti-Semetism, he was COMPARING it to Anti-Semitism. Big difference. I don't agree with the comparison BTW, and while I don't blame the media entirely either, I DO blame the media for NOT putting these problems in their proper context.

All you are doing by defending the indefensible is proving what we the critics say is true.
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And what exactly have I been defending that is so indefensible? I have NO defended any of the behavior of the priests in question and rather quite deplore it.
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washunut said:
Most people laugh at the assertion the church has not spewed hatred for hundreds of years.

Here is something you can help me with, how was the track record of Poland during WWII. Why were so many concentration camps set up in that country.

I am not anti-catholic, just saying what most of the world understands to be obvious.
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It isn't as if the Catholic Church had anything to do with Concentration Camps, if that is what you are suggesting. Poland was well behind the lines of the war and was occupied by Germany much earlier on than places to the west.

That you would in some way connect the CHurch to the Holocaust is not only historically wrong, it is highly offensive.
 
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