Chechen rebel leader claims he ordered attack on Moscow subway

donsutherland1 said:

Those responsible for war crimes, no matter which army they represent should always be held accountable for their actions. IMO, some of what took place e.g., the indiscriminate bombardment, amounted to war crimes. The principle of adhering to the Laws of War is extremely important. Once exemptions are made via rationalizations for those who violate those laws, that precedent grants license for others to do the same. In the long-run, such a development would translate into less/no protection for civilians and more lost lives than would otherwise be the case.

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yes yes and yes !!!!! The Russians brought this upon themselves becasue they behaved like barbarians since the beginning of time. You reap what you sow !!!!!!!

donsutherland1 said:

One should not hold today's generation of Russians guilty for the horrific and numerous crimes against humanity that took place under Soviet tyranny. The commuters on Moscow's Metro were not the perpetrators' of the Soviets' crimes.

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NO, the attitude of the Putins are the same as those of Ivan The Terrible, Catherine the whore, CHEKKA, NKVD, KGB, Lenin, Stalin, Beria, etc. Those people in the metro have inherrited the empire from their ancestors they want to maintain that empire, and in doing so they need to pay for the sins of their ancestors, their contemporaries, and their future leaders. You want an empire and opppress minorites you better be ready to pay for it. And if getting your butt blown to bits in the METRO is the price for empire so be it.

donsutherland1 said:

By attacking innocent civilians who have nothing to do with the conflict, the terrorists have done nothing to help address some very real needs that the Chechen people have. They have shifted the focus to the atrocity they committed. They have undermined emergent prospects for a continuing relaxation of security measures and all but eliminated prospects for a near-term political framework that would accommodate both the Chechen people's need for greater autonomy and Russia's vital interests in the Caucasus/core need for preservation of Russia's territorial integrity.

Hopefully, in coming weeks and months, Russia will make progress in hunting down the terrorists and their leaders. Those responsible for deliberately attacking civilians should be brought to justice for their crimes.

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Then bring all of those who killed Chechen children, Georgians, or any non Rsussian peoples to justice. If all terorists are to be brought to justice than the real terrorists, Russians need to be brought to justice!!!!

F107HyperSabr said:

Then bring all of those who killed Chechen children, Georgians, or any non Rsussian peoples to justice. If all terorists are to be brought to justice than the real terrorists, Russians need to be brought to justice!!!!

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It is sickening and also sad how you can claim that the Russian civilians who died on that Metro "reaped what they sowed" who cares what the Bible says? ARE YOU SERIOUS? You are NO DIFFERENT than the radical Islamists we fight today. How dare you use a religious text to try and say "See they deserved to die." How ****ing dare you! I am not a religious man, I don't give a crap about the verse "you reap what you sow." And maybe those Russians on the metro didn't believe in it either. You justify this sick atrocity on civilians because of the terrible pain and suffering the Chechen people have gone through. No one is saying the Chechens cannot be free, no one is saying they aren't just as lovely a people as the rest of the world, but YOU seem to be saying that is is OK to kill innocent civilians because they belong to a country that did atrocities throughout time. **** that. That is illogical and just plain horrible!

So according to your logic:

We should kill and maim as many Iranians civilians we can since their government and leaders are terrorists and have done terrorists acts?

Every American civilian should be the target of an attack because George W. Bush authorized two wars and civilians in those countries have died therefore the civilians here are fair game?

You know who you sound like? His name is Osama Bin Laden and this is his logic:

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

That is all included in Bin Ladens letter to America. Read it, educate yourself. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
This sounds eerily similar.

I have deep feelings that you want what is right for the Chechen people! As do we all, but do not let your emotions be guided by hatred for modern Russian civilians. These innocent people on the subway, were just that, innocent. Please at least think this over.

Until today I was not able to reach a decision on which act is more barbaric, monstrous and inhuman.

The murdering of innocent civilians based on their nationality, or the expression of support for those murderers.

F107HyperSabr said:

yes yes and yes !!!!! The Russians brought this upon themselves becasue they behaved like barbarians since the beginning of time. You reap what you sow !!!!!!!

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The Russian commuters were not combatants. They 'sowed' nothing. They should never have been targeted.

Apocalypse said:

The murdering of innocent civilians based on their nationality, or the expression of support for those murderers.

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Such thinking is shocking. It is a cold outlook that ignores individuals' humanity and treats distinctions between guilt vs. innocence and combatant vs. non-combatant as wholly irrelevant. In many ways, it echoes the various rationalizations of those responsible for some of history's worst atrocities under which people became the target of horrific violence simply because who they were. Wherever and whenever such rationalizations take hold, civilization ceases to exist.

donsutherland1 said:

The Russian commuters were not combatants. They 'sowed' nothing. They should never have been targeted.

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No no Boychiko !!! Their government and their history sowed the seeds of terrorism and now the fruits of those seeds have matured!!

Apocalypse said:

Until today I was not able to reach a decision on which act is more barbaric, monstrous and inhuman.

The murdering of innocent civilians based on their nationality, or the expression of support for those murderers.

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Well I reached my decision at about age 7 when I heard about memebers of my extended family dieing from a Russian imposed famine and that both of my Grandfathers were went to Siberia. My extened family was murdered by Russians through famine only because they were Ukrainian and my Grandfathers were sent to Siberia becasue they were Ukrainian land/business owners and connected with a Ukrainian indpendence movement.

Therefor my family was targeted because of their nationality by the Russians so how am I today to have sympathy for the spawn of those very "barbaric, monstrous and inhuman" Russians who hurt my family and my ancestral home.

F107HyperSabr said:

Well I reached my decision at about age 7 when I heard about memebers of my extended family dieing from a Russian imposed famine and that both of my Grandfathers were went to Siberia. My extened family was murdered by Russians through famine only because they were Ukrainian and my Grandfathers were sent to Siberia becasue they were Ukrainian land/business owners and connected with a Ukrainian indpendence movement.

Therefor my family was targeted because of their nationality by the Russians so how am I today to have sympathy for the spawn of those very "barbaric, monstrous and inhuman" Russians who hurt my family and my ancestral home.

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All I see is you supporting the murdering of people who have got nothing to do with you or your family's alleged suffering.

How does that paint in your eyes?
Is it pink, blue, or red?
I'd figure more around the red.

OxymoronP said:

Your anti russian sentiment is making you irrational. The Islamic rebels are our enemies as much as they are Russias, we must hope that Putin obliderates them ASAP.

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Crimes by the Soviet Union against peoples of many nations have affected many posters of these threads.
Russia claims that these crimes were committed by the Soviet Union and not by Russia.

So let us take these accusations one step further, the crimes of which I speak were committed by the KGB, a now supposedly defunct organization, actually KGB had now morphed into FSB, albeit with the same people involved in both organizations. Putin & Medvedev both members of KGB.
True we in West are fighting a Muslim organization seeking to use religion to pronounce their right to murder innocent civilians, equally true these Chechen freedom fighters may have some contact with those we fight.
What is inescapable is that Russia encourages what we call terrorists and terrorism in Iran and also Venezuela, just in case you imagine Chavez of Venezuela is not financing terrorism, look at the financing of 'Farc' in Columbia.
Perhaps when Russia ceases to finance those who would be our enemies we might feel something for the 'atrocities' committed on their citizens.

OxymoronP said:

Yes it is an accident that they killed innocent children in Beslan.

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Go back to reports regarding that incident.
The majority of children were killed by Russians seeking to recover them from the Terrorists hands.
In other words a botched russian attempt.

Ikari said:

I definitely would never own up to such a action, especially if committed against Russia. You're pretty much ensuring that they're going to roll up into your town and **** it up.

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Going to happen throughout Chechnya regardless of whether these folk are actually involved or not.

donsutherland1 said:

One should not hold today's generation of Russians guilty for the horrific and numerous crimes against humanity that took place under Soviet tyranny. The commuters on Moscow's Metro were not the perpetrators' of the Soviets' crimes.

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Agreed, however they do vote into power members of KGB who were involved in murder, rape, torture, enslavement of Chechnya people from 1990s invasion by ex Soviet troops renamed Russian troops.

F107HyperSabr said:

Well I reached my decision at about age 7 when I heard about memebers of my extended family dieing from a Russian imposed famine and that both of my Grandfathers were went to Siberia. My extened family was murdered by Russians through famine only because they were Ukrainian and my Grandfathers were sent to Siberia becasue they were Ukrainian land/business owners and connected with a Ukrainian indpendence movement.

Therefor my family was targeted because of their nationality by the Russians so how am I today to have sympathy for the spawn of those very "barbaric, monstrous and inhuman" Russians who hurt my family and my ancestral home.

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It appears that there is an irreconcilable clash of two basic approaches:

One approach suggests that a people is always guilty and fair game for reprisals for the acts that were conducted in its name, even if many decades or centuries ago. Under such a line of thought, the cycle of violence would never end (except with genocide).

The other approach is far more nuanced. It rests on the idea that individuals are guilty for their actions, guilt is not collective and it is not inherited. Under such a line of thought past grievances--actual or perceived--can be put aside. Once warring peoples can reconcile and become allies.

I subscribe to the latter line of thinking, not just because it is more hopeful. One has seen it realized i.e., the Jewish people don't hate today's Germans in response to Hitler's Holocaust, France and Britain are close friends, etc.

F107HyperSabr said:

Chechen rebel leader claims he ordered attack on Moscow subway - CNN.com

HTML:

"CNN) -- Chechen rebel leader Dokku Umarov claimed that he personally gave orders to attack the Moscow subway this week, according to a Chechen rebel Web site. The attacks were revenge for what Umarov called a "massacre conducted by the Russian occupants against the poorest residents of Chechnya and Ingushetia,"

I am more than satisfied that a group finally claimed credit for the "revenge" attack against the imperilaist Russians. I had felt that is was a revenge attack but verification and acceptance for an act is the best policy.

HTML:

Russians will no longer be able to simply observe the battles in the Caucasus, Umarov said. "Therefore, the war will come to your streets, and you will feel it for yourselves and with your own lives," he said in the video.

The only way that the peoples of the Caucasus will ever get the freedom that all peoples of the world deserve is to bring the war to the Russians.

Good luck and God bless you Chechen freedom fighters!!!!

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You do realize you are cheering terrorists. Do you cheer Al Queada as well? They do exactly the same thing.

Hatuey said:

I think you should understand that this is a lot older than Beslan. The Russians were killing Chechen children in the 1940s. Stalin deported them to far away lands and moved them around like chess pieces to cold weather and made them work in his concentration camps. The Chechens are a proud people and Russians have tried for centuries to oppress them and Russify them. Read about Operation Lentil. Russia is a incredibly racist country. Always has been.

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The Chechens sided with the Germans during World War II and the Germans killed a hell of a lot more Russians than the Russians ever killed of Chechens.

texmaster said:

You do realize you are cheering terrorists. Do you cheer Al Queada as well? They do exactly the same thing.

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You and other uninformed people always try to smear honest people such as I am with the false accusation of "cheering" Al Queada. You also smear the Chechen patriots who are fighting Russian imperilaism. Russian imperilaism and imperialistic Russians are not innocent. It is very true thatt Al Queada are terrorists but it is very true that the Chechen freedom fighters are not. The Chechens are fighting for their fereedom but the Russians are fighting to keep the Chechens in the Russian Gulag.

texmaster said:

The Chechens sided with the Germans during World War II and the Germans killed a hell of a lot more Russians than the Russians ever killed of Chechens.

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The story of "Chechens" siding “with the Germans during World War II” is nothing but a filthy Russian/Stalinist lie that many innocently ignorant people have grown to believe. That lie was perpetrated by Russians/Stalin. I feel very sorry for anyone who believes anything that Stalin had to say. Do you believe the words of the murderer Stalin? I do not beleive the words of the murderer Stalin any more than I would believe Hitler.

The Russians have falsley accused every nationality and /or ehnic group who fought against Russian/Soviet imperilaism with "colaboration with Gremans". Nothing but a big lie by Russians.

texmaster said:

The Chechens sided with the Germans during World War II and the Germans killed a hell of a lot more Russians than the Russians ever killed of Chechens.

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ROFL - Why am I not surprised you're this misinformed? Here I'll explain to you what actually happened. The Chechens saw a chance for full independence while the Soviet Union was engaged in war with the Nazis. Their wish for independence dates back to nearly 400 years of Russian oppression. So they organized against the USSR. Knowing that Chechnya enjoyed oil reserves, Stalin decided deport them under the pretext that they were helping the Nazis. Seriously, we all know you're sexually illiterate but try picking up a history book:

Foundation for Investigation of the Communist Crimes - Latest News - The Soviet War against `Fifth Columnists': The Case of Chechnya, 1942?4

Although any serious German threat to the Northern Caucasus had ended by the close of 1943, the experiences of the preceding years had taught the Stalinist leadership just how vulnerable Soviet fuel reserves could be: the isthmus that linked northern Iran and European Russia was too strategically vital to leave vulnerable to attack from the south through the Middle East, from the west through Turkey, and above all from within by separatist movements, who could serve as fifth columnists in the event of another war. Initially prepared in late 1943, the ‘Chechevitsa’ — the plan to deport the entire indigenous native population of the Northern Caucasus to Central Asia — was carried out from mid-February until mid-March 1944. The People’s Commissar of Internal Affairs, Lavrentii Beriia, personally travelled to Grozny on 20 February to supervise the operation.

According to the secret decree of the Supreme Soviet dated 7 March 1944, ‘On the Liquidation of the Checheno- Ingush ASSR and the Administrative Reorganization of the Territory’, the reason for the forced deportation was the alleged mass collaboration of the indigenous peoples of the Northern Caucasus with the Germans. This despite the fact that only a small part of Checheno-Ingushetia was actually ever occupied

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Hatuey said:

ROFL - Why am I not surprised you're this misinformed? Here I'll explain to you what actually happened. The Chechens saw a chance for full independence while the Soviet Union was engaged in war with the Nazis. Their wish for independence dates back to nearly 400 years of Russian oppression. So they organized against the USSR. Knowing that Chechnya enjoyed oil reserves, Stalin decided deport them under the pretext that they were helping the Nazis. Seriously, we all know you're sexually illiterate but try picking up a history book:

Foundation for Investigation of the Communist Crimes - Latest News - The Soviet War against `Fifth Columnists': The Case of Chechnya, 1942?4

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Hatuey !!! That was well done !!!! Well stated and so true !!! The Russians accused Georgians, Ukrainians, Beloruses, Latts, Liits, Estonians, some Armenians, maybe even Tatars and others of "collaboration " with Germans. There was even an ethnic Russian who fielded a division to fight against the Soviets.

F107HyperSabr said:

Hatuey !!! That was well done !!!! Well stated and so true !!!

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I'm a big history buff. I've seen some of your posts. Try reading:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Autopsy-Empire-Leaders-Soviet-Regime/dp/0684834200/ref=cm_lmf_tit_5"]Amazon.com: Autopsy for an Empire : The Seven Leaders Who Built the Soviet Regime (9780684834207): Dmitri Volkogonov: Books[/ame]

Great book on Russian history of the last ~100 years.

F107HyperSabr said:

You and other uninformed people always try to smear honest people such as I am with the false accusation of "cheering" Al Queada. You also smear the Chechen patriots who are fighting Russian imperilaism. Russian imperilaism and imperialistic Russians are not innocent. It is very true thatt Al Queada are terrorists but it is very true that the Chechen freedom fighters are not. The Chechens are fighting for their fereedom but the Russians are fighting to keep the Chechens in the Russian Gulag.

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You don't fight for your freedom by strapping on a bomb and board a train full of civilians and blow yourself up.

The very fact you think that's acceptable sickens me.

Hatuey said:

ROFL - Why am I not surprised you're this misinformed? Here I'll explain to you what actually happened. The Chechens saw a chance for full independence while the Soviet Union was engaged in war with the Nazis. Their wish for independence dates back to nearly 400 years of Russian oppression. So they organized against the USSR. Knowing that Chechnya enjoyed oil reserves, Stalin decided deport them under the pretext that they were helping the Nazis. Seriously, we all know you're sexually illiterate but try picking up a history book:

Foundation for Investigation of the Communist Crimes - Latest News - The Soviet War against `Fifth Columnists': The Case of Chechnya, 1942?4

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Are you really this dense?

Did the very fact they sided with the nazis change AT ALL dispite your apologist references?

Not one bit.

All the excuses in your links will not change the fact they sided with the Nazis but thanks for the entertainment.


Are you excusing this terrorist attack like F107HyperSabr Mr "big history buff?" Answer the question.

And while you are brushing up on your history you should read about the Beslan school massacre where Chechen Islamic terrorists murdered nearly 200 children.

Hatuey said:

I'm a big history buff. I've seen some of your posts. Try reading:

Amazon.com: Autopsy for an Empire : The Seven Leaders Who Built the Soviet Regime (9780684834207): Dmitri Volkogonov: Books

Great book on Russian history of the last ~100 years.

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I shall : Just accessed it looks interesting: This is a factual book about the THE UKRAINIAN DIVISION "GALICIA" which served in the German Army and men such as my uncle joined because they wanted to be part of a trained cadre of Ukrainian officers and NCO 's who they hoped would one day go up against the Soviets to free Ukraine. My Dad was with the political arm of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army since he did not want to serve in German uniform but he also wanted to fight the Russians. Two brothers, two paths, same goal- a free Ukraine - fight Russians.

The Ukrainian Division "Galicia": The History of Its Formation and Military Operations (1943-1945)

SYNOPSIS OF THE BOOK:

THE UKRAINIAN DIVISION "GALICIA"

THE HISTORY OF ITS FORMATION AND MILITARY OPERATIONS