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Thread: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

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    Re: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Perhaps not so blatantly -- the constitution does not require a warrant in -every- event.
    In what events does the Constitution require a warrant?
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

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    Re: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I think there is a difference between scanning communications lines in general and scanning select lines of individuals.
    Aren't warrants needed in both instances?
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

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    Re: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated

    See underlined. Not every search/seizure is unreasonable.

    There is a compelling state interest in keeping terrorists from doing what terrorists do. To this end, the government has created a fairly narrow set of corcumstances under which they can listen in to conversations w/o a warrant.

    This, arguably, meets the requirements of strict scrutiny, and so does not qualify as an unreasonable search.
    WOH WOH WOH WOH WOH, Slow down there partner. You trust your government not to at any time, under any circumstances break with that strict set of circumstances? what about all the can't trust government and government is the problem? If you conservatives are so worried about the abuse of power, why so readily allow them to use such a tool, that if something democratically went wrong, could be used against you so easily.

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    Re: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    WOH WOH WOH WOH WOH, Slow down there partner. You trust your government not to at any time, under any circumstances break with that strict set of circumstances?
    Just laying out the argument for not every search requring a warrant. If a particular instance meets the standards of strict scrutiny, the protection of the 4th is not applied.

    In fact, there are many instances where no warrent is necessary - a police officer sees a gun in your car, etc. In those case, the search considered 'reasonable' and no warrant is needed.

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    Re: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    In fact, there are many instances where no warrent is necessary - a police officer sees a gun in your car, etc. In those case, the search considered 'reasonable' and no warrant is needed.
    But you know that, it is happening to you. The cop is physically there, and if you had a gun well sure. But my argument here is against the wire taps. You can't see that person in some government ant hill in the mountains that just has to push a button to hear you. It's not the same. And there is so much possibility for abuse of such a system. That youd never know about.

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    Re: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    But you know that, it is happening to you. The cop is physically there, and if you had a gun well sure.
    None of that is relevant to the argument that not -all- searches require a warrant. There ARE instances when a warrantless search IS allowable; the presence or knowledge of the person being searched is not considered relevant.

    The only question, then, is if the wiretaps in question fall among those instances.

    Given the particulars and cirumstances, I'd say yes.

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    Re: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    None of that is relevant to the argument that not -all- searches require a warrant. There ARE instances when a warrantless search IS allowable; the presence or knowledge of the person being searched is not considered relevant.

    The only question, then, is if the wiretaps in question fall among those instances.

    Given the particulars and cirumstances, I'd say yes.
    Fair enough. I can accept that argument to a certain extent.

    But categorically. Are you stating then that there is absolutely no possibility for abuse of such a system?

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    Re: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Fair enough. I can accept that argument to a certain extent.


    But categorically. Are you stating then that there is absolutely no possibility for abuse of such a system?
    Sure there's a possibility -- but then, that's always a possibility in anything the government does, and so the full absence of such a possibility isnt a requirement.

    If it -is- abused, it will be taken care of in court.

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    Re: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post



    Sure there's a possibility -- but then, that's always a possibility in anything the government does, and so the full absence of such a possibility isnt a requirement.

    If it -is- abused, it will be taken care of in court.
    Thank you sir, for a well reasoned argument that did not take us to extreme mud slinging. Have a good day

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    Re: Bush-ordered wiretaps illegal, judge says

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Thank you sir, for a well reasoned argument that did not take us to extreme mud slinging. Have a good day
    Likewise!

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