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Nine Charged in Bullying of Massachusetts Teen Who Killed Herself

We're talking about a 9th grader who is new to the area, 3 months I believe, from a different country. You expect her to report this activity to the cops? I don't think you understand teenagers at all.

I expect her to report this activity to her parents who should then go to the cops. I know I would be going to the cops, and I know my parents would have done the same thing had I reported someone physically assaulting me.
 
We're talking about a 9th grader who is new to the area, 3 months I believe, from a different country. You expect her to report this activity to the cops? I don't think you understand teenagers at all.

I know, right?! Because I popped out of cabbage patch already grow'd up!

:2razz:

She could have told her mother, who could then have told the cops. Plus, if they beat her up, you don't think her mom would have noticed the bruising?
 
I know, right?! Because I popped out of cabbage patch already grow'd up!

She could have told her mother, who could then have told the cops. Plus, if they beat her up, you don't think her mom would have noticed the bruising?

No. I just don't think you're aware of how this works, for whatever reason. You seem to have no empathy at all for what this bullying did to this poor girl emotionally. Peer pressure and the desire of teenagers to be accepted can trump all logic. Teens don't think parents were ever young, can understand what they're going thru or can help. She could have done a lot of things. She didn't. So what? Her parents did talk to the school and the school did ****. And no, the parents may not have seen any bruises. After all, they probably haven't seen their daughter naked for quite some time.
 
No. I just don't think you're aware of how this works, for whatever reason. You seem to have no empathy at all for what this bullying did to this poor girl emotionally.
Empathy for her emotional distress is irrelevant to whether or not the "bullies" should be prosecuted. And that IS what we're talking about. I discount her emotional problems because they have no bearing on the futures of the other kids in question.
 
Empathy for her emotional distress is irrelevant to whether or not the "bullies" should be prosecuted.

It seems the prosecutor disagrees with you. And the judge may also when it comes time for sentencing those a-holes.

And that IS what we're talking about. I discount her emotional problems because they have no bearing on the futures of the other kids in question.

That is one of the issues we're talking about. You being able to "discount her emotional problems" is sad.
 
It seems the prosecutor disagrees with you. And the judge may also when it comes time for sentencing those a-holes.
Hopefully not. Since hurting someone's feelings isn't against the law. I cross my fingers that the judge has a brain.


That is one of the issues we're talking about. You being able to "discount her emotional problems" is sad.

I discount them in the context of the discussion we're having regarding the futures of the other kids. Her emotional problems are not the issue, therefore they need to be eliminated from any discussion OF the issue.

Hurting someone's feelings isn't against the law, nor should it be.

If they physically assaulted her, then they should be punished for that act. But no teenager should have a permanent criminal record for hurting someone's feelings.
 
Captain Courtesy said:
You are confusing behavior with emotion. Folks may have control over the behaviors that could result from their emotions, but they cannot control those emotions, themselves. When you combine clinical depression, a chemical imbalance, with the impulsivity and over emotionality of adolescence you have a strong potential for behaviors like this.

Also, different people are hard-wired differently and also have different experiences from which to assess a situation. That is why two people can have different reactions to the same scenario.

Finally, bullying is bullying. Her response is irrelevant

Emotions are what we cannot consciously control that filters through our mental structures. Because we can change those mental structures, we can to a degree control our emotions.

Moreover, emotions have more in common with sensory input than conscious thought, in that we have the choice to either recognize and accept those emotions or to ignore them and not allow them to get the best of us. Our mind is structured in such a way that, while we have limited control over our emotions, we do have a choice on how we deal with them.

Essentially I guess I am agreeing with your first paragraph, but that doesn't in my opinion touch on what I am saying, really. You've made some claims that I agree with, and that I think were implied in my post that you quoted, but towards the end you go on discussing the "strong potential". I understand that if we take humans in their normal state, which is generally not conscious of their mental faculties and the power that their mind can have over their emotions, we can draw conclusions about how people will act in certain situations, and of course having depression is going to increase the probability of suicide in that case. However, that's irrelevant to my point.

As for the "hard wired" thing, I don't think that's really accurate. I think that people develop these mental structures throughout their lives, and that some are more entrenched and difficult to change than others, but that in the long run they are all malleable to conscious will, and so I disagree with the idea of "hard wiring".
 
I expect her to report this activity to her parents who should then go to the cops. I know I would be going to the cops, and I know my parents would have done the same thing had I reported someone physically assaulting me.

Actually though, there are a lot of cops who will just say that it is kids being kids. I know, because my mother took me to the police station when the girl hit me in the back of the head as we were getting off the bus. We were both in high school. The policewoman took the report, but told us that there wasn't really anything they can do because we are teenagers. Now this was over 14 years ago, but that is kind of why this case is so important. It needs to show people that teenagers should not be allowed to bully other teenagers just because they are at this age. They won't be allowed to legally do these things as adults, so why should we allow it while they are teenagers? And I am talking about the physical assaults and the harassment, not the name calling and what most people would consider teasing on a small scale.
 
Actually though, there are a lot of cops who will just say that it is kids being kids. I know, because my mother took me to the police station when the girl hit me in the back of the head as we were getting off the bus. We were both in high school. The policewoman took the report, but told us that there wasn't really anything they can do because we are teenagers. Now this was over 14 years ago, but that is kind of why this case is so important. It needs to show people that teenagers should not be allowed to bully other teenagers just because they are at this age. They won't be allowed to legally do these things as adults, so why should we allow it while they are teenagers? And I am talking about the physical assaults and the harassment, not the name calling and what most people would consider teasing on a small scale.

I have been agreeing with almost all your posts in this thread. I hope the kids in this case suffer tremendously from their disgusting behavior. Karma's a bitch.

Gosh, roguenuke, I don't like how they were able to convince your mother that nothing could be done. Someone hitting you on the back of the head is battery, and by golly, they (the police) should have done something about it. This BS about you all being teenagers was a bogus piece of BS. I'm sorry your mother didn't think about taking it to this police officer's supervisor. I know I would.
 
Hopefully not. Since hurting someone's feelings isn't against the law. I cross my fingers that the judge has a brain.




I discount them in the context of the discussion we're having regarding the futures of the other kids. Her emotional problems are not the issue, therefore they need to be eliminated from any discussion OF the issue.

Hurting someone's feelings isn't against the law, nor should it be.

If they physically assaulted her, then they should be punished for that act. But no teenager should have a permanent criminal record for hurting someone's feelings.

You just refuse to see the difference in "hurting someone's feelings" and actually causing emotional damage. Calling someone a name once or twice can hurt their feelings, calling them names for 3 months straight along with putting those names up in several places, stalking someone, and threatening them is not just going to hurt their feelings, it is going to cause emotional damage.

Emotional damage caused by these teenage bullies is the issue. There is no proof that she had any major emotional problems at all before they started harassing her. What you could endure emotionally as a teenager is not the same as what someone else can endure emotionally as a teenager, with or without any major emotional problems.

Would you say that a parent who is constantly putting their teenager down is just hurting their kid's feelings, or would they be causing emotional damage? Where is the point when the parent would be considered to be actually doing emotional damage, after one comment, ten, a month's worth, or would it actually take years? In fact, most people consider it abuse when one spouse is doing the things that they did to her, to their spouse.

Also, we have to look at who can be likely to cause emotional damage, especially to a teenager. Some random person just calling a teenager derogatory names is less likely to actually cause the teenager any emotional distress than her peers would be calling her those names, especially when the girl in question had been in some sort of relationship with two of those "peers". And these bullies weren't just calling her names. According to the reports, they were stalking her and threatening her.
 
You just refuse to see the difference in "hurting someone's feelings" and actually causing emotional damage. Calling someone a name once or twice can hurt their feelings, calling them names for 3 months straight along with putting those names up in several places, stalking someone, and threatening them is not just going to hurt their feelings, it is going to cause emotional damage.

Emotional damage caused by these teenage bullies is the issue. There is no proof that she had any major emotional problems at all before they started harassing her. What you could endure emotionally as a teenager is not the same as what someone else can endure emotionally as a teenager, with or without any major emotional problems.

Would you say that a parent who is constantly putting their teenager down is just hurting their kid's feelings, or would they be causing emotional damage? Where is the point when the parent would be considered to be actually doing emotional damage, after one comment, ten, a month's worth, or would it actually take years? In fact, most people consider it abuse when one spouse is doing the things that they did to her, to their spouse.

Also, we have to look at who can be likely to cause emotional damage, especially to a teenager. Some random person just calling a teenager derogatory names is less likely to actually cause the teenager any emotional distress than her peers would be calling her those names, especially when the girl in question had been in some sort of relationship with two of those "peers". And these bullies weren't just calling her names. According to the reports, they were stalking her and threatening her.

"Emotional damage" is another bull****, feel-good charge. People can be "emotionally damaged" from all sorts of stupid ****. Causing someone emotional pain isn't against the law and it shouldn't be.

WTF does "emotional damage" even mean? How is that measured? How is it verified? If walk in and catch my life-partner ****ing someone else and I then have trust issues for the rest of my life, is that "emotional damage"? What if I can never love again? Can I seek criminal action against them for doing something to deliberately cause me pain and "emotional damage"?
 
You just refuse to see the difference in "hurting someone's feelings" and actually causing emotional damage. Calling someone a name once or twice can hurt their feelings, calling them names for 3 months straight along with putting those names up in several places, stalking someone, and threatening them is not just going to hurt their feelings, it is going to cause emotional damage.

What kind of emotional damage? I saw kids bullied and was bullied myself in ways that far surpass the description of what happened to this girl. It's a normal part of life. I don't care Captain says this time; he carries the bias of having to show sympathy for the sick girl who killed herself because of his profession. The fact remains, 30% of kids go through the type of "abuse" this girl went through and the vast majority don't kill themselves. These kids wouldn't even be in trouble if the girl hadn't killed herself. They should have been suspended from school; but to trump criminal charges against them because of a disturbed little girl not being able to cope with life is absurd. Now, instead of one ruined life, you are gonna have 9 ruined lives, just so a grieving community can feel better about what happened.

Emotional damage caused by these teenage bullies is the issue. There is no proof that she had any major emotional problems at all before they started harassing her.

I think proof of her emotional problems was found hanging by a belt in a closet.

What you could endure emotionally as a teenager is not the same as what someone else can endure emotionally as a teenager, with or without any major emotional problems.

Which is relevant, how?

Would you say that a parent who is constantly putting their teenager down is just hurting their kid's feelings, or would they be causing emotional damage? Where is the point when the parent would be considered to be actually doing emotional damage, after one comment, ten, a month's worth, or would it actually take years?

Not even comparable since the parent child relationship comes with an inherent power disparity.

In fact, most people consider it abuse when one spouse is doing the things that they did to her, to their spouse.

And it would be. But I would have just as little sympathy for the spouse who killed themselves, too. And between spouses, its no longer bullying; it's domestic violence.

Also, we have to look at who can be likely to cause emotional damage, especially to a teenager. Some random person just calling a teenager derogatory names is less likely to actually cause the teenager any emotional distress than her peers would be calling her those names, especially when the girl in question had been in some sort of relationship with two of those "peers". And these bullies weren't just calling her names. According to the reports, they were stalking her and threatening her.

Awww. They sent some mean text messages and put some catty crap up on facebook. Forgive me if I don't get all up in arms about teenagers not knowing what boundaries are on the interwebz since we already realize they don't have a firm grasp on boundaries in real life.
 
I have been agreeing with almost all your posts in this thread. I hope the kids in this case suffer tremendously from their disgusting behavior. Karma's a bitch.

Gosh, roguenuke, I don't like how they were able to convince your mother that nothing could be done. Someone hitting you on the back of the head is battery, and by golly, they (the police) should have done something about it. This BS about you all being teenagers was a bogus piece of BS. I'm sorry your mother didn't think about taking it to this police officer's supervisor. I know I would.

The thing is though that there are a lot of people who don't know what is and isn't allowed by the law. That is one of the things that I hope will come from this case. I don't think anyone should be charged with her death, she committed suicide. But I don't have a problem with them being charged with things that they actually did do to her before that.

My biggest hope is that they actually will be found guilty of most, if not all, charges and get some punishment because of what they were doing to her. I have no problem with teenagers having criminal records for doing things like they did. Maybe it will help make them better adults. But whether it does or not, at least justice will be done. And it most likely will have other positive affects. One should be to make parents, teenagers, and even school officials and law officers realize that they can report and see justice for bullying that is physically harmful or is to the point of harassment. And the more the word is out there, the more people can stop the bullying before it reaches the point where a teenager feels that suicide or homicide is the only way to deal with it. Maybe schools will look into more informational awareness to give to their students on bullying. Another good thing might be that some of the other bullies out there might rethink their ways or at least think better about taking it to extremes. And maybe this will also make parents of the bullies actually become concerned if they are hearing that their teen is participating in this behavior. Now, I know the last two are more wishful thinking, rather than what will probably happen, but I figure I can hope.
 
The thing is though that there are a lot of people who don't know what is and isn't allowed by the law. That is one of the things that I hope will come from this case. I don't think anyone should be charged with her death, she committed suicide. But I don't have a problem with them being charged with things that they actually did do to her before that.

My biggest hope is that they actually will be found guilty of most, if not all, charges and get some punishment because of what they were doing to her. I have no problem with teenagers having criminal records for doing things like they did. Maybe it will help make them better adults. But whether it does or not, at least justice will be done. And it most likely will have other positive affects. One should be to make parents, teenagers, and even school officials and law officers realize that they can report and see justice for bullying that is physically harmful or is to the point of harassment. And the more the word is out there, the more people can stop the bullying before it reaches the point where a teenager feels that suicide or homicide is the only way to deal with it. Maybe schools will look into more informational awareness to give to their students on bullying. Another good thing might be that some of the other bullies out there might rethink their ways or at least think better about taking it to extremes. And maybe this will also make parents of the bullies actually become concerned if they are hearing that their teen is participating in this behavior. Now, I know the last two are more wishful thinking, rather than what will probably happen, but I figure I can hope.

That's what many people in law enforcement rely on--the fact that you don't question their authority. This is not meant to insult law enforcement people.

Look at the law relating to criminal harassment in Massachusetts.
M.G.L. - Chapter 265, Section 43a

I'd be surprised if these kids didn't get a conviction on this count, assuming the facts alleged are true.

I wouldn't waste energy on trying to have a discussion on this with rivrrat. You won't make her say, "Oh, rogenuke, you're right." Move on. You have better things to do with your time.
 
I am reminded of my days in High School. Bullying is nothing new. Back in the mid 70's, in my Texas high-school, there was no shortage of boot wearin', scoal dippin', rootin-tootin' cowboy wannabes busting the balls of the meaker students. If you didn't have a "Proud to be a KIKK'er" bumper sticker on your Ford truck, you were fair game.

Their problem with me, a long-haired leaping gnome, who was a rocker from the git-go, is that I was 6'1, 180 lbs, (since the 10th grade) trained fighter that oftened "turned the other cheek" to avoid their immaturity. Too often, that was considered a weakness by these inbred rednecks. However, the few that actually wanted to take it to the limit and try me, only did it once. After laying out a few of these goat-roper assholes, they eventually got a clue that I wasn't one to roll over and I was left alone.

Although, I am one who generally tries to keep the peace, I was kind of a bully to bullies. I guess I still am. I hate those bastards. Pick on my weaker friends and that's just like picking on me. I usually turn the other cheek when it's directed at me. I got nothing to prove. But when my friends get bullied, I have a tendancy to come unglued.

But I'm working on it. ;)
 
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I am reminded of my days in High School. Bullying is nothing new. Back in the mid 70's, in my Texas high-school, there was no shortage of boot wearin', scoal dippin', rootin-tootin' cowboy wannabes busting the balls of the meaker students. If you didn't have a "Proud to be a KIKK'er" bumper sticker on your Ford truck, you were fair game.

Their problem with me, a long-haired leaping gnome, who was a rocker from the git-go, is that I was 6'1, 180 lbs, trained fighter that oftened "turned the other cheek" to avoid their immaturity. Too often, that was considered a weakness by these inbred rednecks. However, the few that actually wanted to try me, only did it once. After laying out a few of these bully assholes, they eventually got a clue that I wasn't one to roll over and I was left alone.

Although, I am one who generally tries to keep the peace, I was kind of a bully to bullies. I guess I still am. I hate those bastards. Pick on my weaker friends and that's just like picking on me. I usually turn the other cheek when it's directed at me. I got nothing to prove. But when my friends get bullied, I have a tendancy to come unglued.

But I'm working on it. ;)

And that's really where it's at: bullying is really one of those phenomenon that you just have to face down.
 
And that's really where it's at: bullying is really one of those phenomenon that you just have to face down.

That's easy to say when you're a nidan from Icochi Budo Kai. But some of my friends weren't so fortunant. (But I had their back. ;) 0
 
That's easy to say when you're a nidan from Icochi Budo Kai. But some of my friends weren't so fortunant. (But I had their back. ;) 0

You don't have to be an 80th degree super ninja from Sgt Stinger's dojo to give a bully a good smack in the mouth. And one is usually all it takes for most bullies.
 
And that's really where it's at: bullying is really one of those phenomenon that you just have to face down.

That attitude only enables bullying to continue. Being able to face it down is not the prime goal here. Stopping and preventing bullying is. It's not one child's inability to fight back that is the problem. The bullying is. It's adults' responsibility to act to protect kids and to take steps to "correct" bullying. It's not the responsibility of the bullied. If they can, great. But, they should not feel forced to do battle. In most schools, it doesn't matter who started the fight. Both get suspended, if not expelled. The bullied do not have the power to correct the bullies behavior and even if they did fighting back is no guarantee the harassment will stop. Bullying not only has an impact on the bullied. Bullies also suffer, although not immediately, and often without much sympathy.
 
That attitude only enables bullying to continue. Being able to face it down is not the prime goal here. Stopping and preventing bullying is. It's not one child's inability to fight back that is the problem. The bullying is. It's adults' responsibility to act to protect kids and to take steps to "correct" bullying. It's not the responsibility of the bullied. If they can, great. But, they should not feel forced to do battle. In most schools, it doesn't matter who started the fight. Both get suspended, if not expelled. The bullied do not have the power to correct the bullies behavior and even if they did fighting back is no guarantee the harassment will stop. Bullying not only has an impact on the bullied. Bullies also suffer, although not immediately, and often without much sympathy.
You may as well try to 'correct' the behavior of teens having sex. It's just a fact of life. There are mean people in the world. There are assholes. Fact of life. You're not going to stop them in grade school, or high school, or college, or in workplaces. It's not the job of the government to make people be nicer to one another.
 
You don't have to be an 80th degree super ninja from Sgt Stinger's dojo to give a bully a good smack in the mouth. And one is usually all it takes for most bullies.

That's a noble concept that I can get behind, however, I think that maybe, just maybe, you haven't been around a whole lotta hay-haulin', cornfed goatroapers in your life. Some of those boys, that ram their heads into goal posts for fun, are pretty dog-gone stout !

Strong like bull.
Smart like Ox.

:rofl
 
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That's a noble concept that I can get behind, however, I think that maybe, just maybe, you haven't been around a whole lotta hay-haulin', cornfed goatroapers in your life. Some of those boys, that ram their heads into goal posts for fun, are pretty dog-gone stout !

Strong like bull.
Smart like Ox.

:rofl

I grew up on a tobacco farm. I know the type you are talking about. They are usually the biggest ******s when actually confronted.
 
I grew up on a tobacco farm. I know the type you are talking about. They are usually the biggest ******s when actually confronted.

Really?

The Texas redneck goatroapers I knew were like catfish. You could cut their heads off and they STILL didn't know they were dead.

But, like you said, once they got bitch slapped once or twice, they do quit coming around.
 
I grew up on a tobacco farm. I know the type you are talking about. They are usually the biggest ******s when actually confronted.

Of course they are. That's why they only confront people with their loyal followers.

When I was 14, I had a group of bully type gals who disliked me in high school. (well, many, actually - girls didn't like me much) But anywho, this particular group was known for jumping the gals they didn't like as a group - of course. They caught me at the local hangout one night by myself and proceeded to mouth off, and mouth off, and mouth off. Namecalling, threats, long lectures on how terrible I was, etc, etc. (I slept a guy one of them had a thing for - sorry about her luck LOL)

I stood there and didn't say a word as they did their best to verbally berate me and hope that I responded with anything that would warrant a physical response from them.

I didn't say a word the whole time. Stood there patiently waiting for them to finish. When they did, I asked the "head" gal if she was done. She looked confused and said, ".. yeah.. "

"Good", I said. I turned around and walked off without another word.

They followed me down the street, screaming at me and throwing things. I ignored them and continued walking at a normal pace. Eventually, they ran out of steam and realized that they were not going to get the reaction they wanted. I wasn't going to cry. I wasn't going to beg them to stop. I wasn't going to run. I wasn't going to initiate a physical encounter. There was nothing they were able to do or say that was going to get a reaction out of me. (aside from actually striking me) So, they gave up.

They never did it again, either. Though I had plenty of other gals who "called me out" over the years in school. I treated them with the same apathy.
 
Of course they are. That's why they only confront people with their loyal followers.

When I was 14, I had a group of bully type gals who disliked me in high school. (well, many, actually - girls didn't like me much) But anywho, this particular group was known for jumping the gals they didn't like as a group - of course. They caught me at the local hangout one night by myself and proceeded to mouth off, and mouth off, and mouth off. Namecalling, threats, long lectures on how terrible I was, etc, etc. (I slept a guy one of them had a thing for - sorry about her luck LOL)

I stood there and didn't say a word as they did their best to verbally berate me and hope that I responded with anything that would warrant a physical response from them.

I didn't say a word the whole time. Stood there patiently waiting for them to finish. When they did, I asked the "head" gal if she was done. She looked confused and said, ".. yeah.. "

"Good", I said. I turned around and walked off without another word.

They followed me down the street, screaming at me and throwing things. I ignored them and continued walking at a normal pace. Eventually, they ran out of steam and realized that they were not going to get the reaction they wanted. I wasn't going to cry. I wasn't going to beg them to stop. I wasn't going to run. I wasn't going to initiate a physical encounter. There was nothing they were able to do or say that was going to get a reaction out of me. (aside from actually striking me) So, they gave up.

They never did it again, either. Though I had plenty of other gals who "called me out" over the years in school. I treated them with the same apathy.

That's pretty much how I handled guys that acted the same way except it tended to get a little more physical sometimes. I had absolutely no problem trying to seriously injure anyone who touched me. I don't like being touched. You can say whatever you want and that's fine. That's your right. But the minute you enter my space and your hand lands somewhere on my body, I will see red and won't stop until you stop moving or get out of my reach. This was something that was common knowledge by the 5th week of our freshman year and I never really had to prove that point again. :lol:
 
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