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Nine Charged in Bullying of Massachusetts Teen Who Killed Herself

Redress said:
Well, if you are rational on the subject. The phrase "statutory rape" means a certain thing, which is entirely different from the solo word "rape". Kinda like the word "woman" means something different than the word "man".
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Yeah, I know what it means legally. And it's insulting to call it any kind of rape.
 
rivrrat said:
Simple. Ignore them. You've said yourself that they're looking for a reaction. If you don't give them one, they get bored and move on.

Second way, be nice to them. Smile, wave, tell them good morning, etc. Again, not the reaction they're looking for.

I've found both of these tactics to be extremely successful in getting bullies to stop bullying.


It's not so much that I don't consider it harassment as I don't consider harassment something worthy of criminal action.

The only way I would go to the cops is if someone was actually preventing me from living my life in a normal manner. Pounding on my door all night long. Following me everywhere I went and physically pushing me, shoving me. Using their vehicle to prevent mine from moving when I tried to go anywhere. Things like that. Things that actually physically prevent me from living my life normally. But calling me names? Posting mean things about me online?
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rivrrat, I don't think you appreciate the level of what is happening here. All those tactics used to work and usually are good advice. But, kid bullies these days don't take a hint and simply don't stop. Kids are not as strong as adults. They succumb to peer bullying faster and more severely than you or I might. Look, these kids committed rape. Another committed suicide over this ****. This is serious ****! It needs to be stopped before serious crimes are committed.

This bullying is an epidemic in schools all over the country. It needs to be stopped early and hard. These punks need to be punished to the fullest extent of the law possible. This needs to be used as a teaching moment to school admins and teachers all over to get their attention to take bullying more seriously.

The "kids will be kids" excuse to ignore this has to be replaced with "we need to protect our kids". It's our responsibility to stop bullying. God damn, this is our children we're talking about. These are serious crimes we're talking about. This ain't "harassment"!
 
rivrrat said:
Yeah, I know what it means legally. And it's insulting to call it any kind of rape.
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Only if you choose to be insulted. It means what it means, if you want to read extra meaning into it, feel free.
 
Zyphlin said:
See, I can understand that to a point. There's a point I don't. For example, if a 30 year old instructor convinces his 8 year old student that its prefectly okay to let him touch her there and that its natural and she's a big girl, I think statutory rape is a correct type of law. The 8 year old is in no realm of believability able to make such a large decision with an even close to full understanding of the consequences and is being manipulated by someone in a place of authority over them. There is "consent" there but its not really informed if you get my meaning.

I understand fully what you mean if its a 14 year old and a 17 year old. Even though I think such an act is extremely skeevy and rather disgusting, I would even say its wrong for say a 30 year old and a 16 year old. But I do think there are points where the Statutory Rape standard is definitely a worthy law.
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But, that wouldn't be statutory rape. It would be molestation. If it DOES fall under statutory rape, then I would agree with you in those extreme circumstances. But the only way I've ever personally seen statutory rape laws applied involve teenagers having consensual sex with one another or someone a couple of years older.
 
rivrrat said:
Simple. Ignore them. You've said yourself that they're looking for a reaction. If you don't give them one, they get bored and move on.

Second way, be nice to them. Smile, wave, tell them good morning, etc. Again, not the reaction they're looking for.

I've found both of these tactics to be extremely successful in getting bullies to stop bullying.


It's not so much that I don't consider it harassment as I don't consider harassment something worthy of criminal action.

The only way I would go to the cops is if someone was actually preventing me from living my life in a normal manner. Pounding on my door all night long. Following me everywhere I went and physically pushing me, shoving me. Using their vehicle to prevent mine from moving when I tried to go anywhere. Things like that. Things that actually physically prevent me from living my life normally. But calling me names? Posting mean things about me online?
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Those reactions don't always work with teenagers. And the harassment continued for at least 3 months (this is from one of the news stories, but another said Sept til she killed herself in Jan). Teenagers are more easily intimidated than adults and, in her particular case, less likely to have a friend there to assure her that doing those things you said would actually work.

And what you would endure before going to the cops is not necessarily the same as what someone else could endure. Also, since we don't know all the details of the case, there is no telling what kind of things were specifically being done to her outside of school. They had her cell phone number, so maybe they were calling her a lot. It is also possible what I said earlier is true, that they could have placed an ad on Craig's list from her, with her phone number on it, and she could have been also getting calls from that.

I have no idea what all the details of the case are, but the DA obviously felt she had a good case. I simply don't agree with you that harassment should not be a criminal offense. Intentional acts meant to cause emotional distress should not be overlooked by our justice system just because they are not doing actual physical harm.

It's not the fact that they did a few things, it's the number of them and the number of things they did, not to mention the pure meanness to all of it. There is no excuse for anyone to act like that towards another person, and she certainly should not have had to just "ignore it" for months.
 
roguenuke said:
Those reactions don't always work with teenagers. And the harassment continued for at least 3 months
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Then ignore it. Let it be. You should not let what is beyond your powers affect you, because doing so is a waste of energy and yields no positive results.

And what you would endure before going to the cops is not necessarily the same as what someone else could endure. Also, since we don't know all the details of the case, there is no telling what kind of things were specifically being done to her outside of school. They had her cell phone number, so maybe they were calling her a lot. It is also possible what I said earlier is true, that they could have placed an ad on Craig's list from her, with her phone number on it, and she could have been also getting calls from that.
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If something like that seriously bothers you then you can just change your phone number. Duh.
 
ADK_Forever said:
rivrrat, I don't think you appreciate the level of what is happening here. All those tactics used to work and usually are good advice. But, kid bullies these days don't take a hint and simply don't stop. Kids are not as strong as adults. They succumb to peer bullying faster and more severely than you or I might.
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I've been a kid too, ya know. And bullied. I seriously doubt that bullies "these days" are any different. I was followed, had things thrown at me, called names, threatened with violence. What I did worked perfectly. And I was 14.

Look, these kids committed rape. Another committed suicide over this ****. This is serious ****! It needs to be stopped before serious crimes are committed.
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Statutory rape isn't rape.

This bullying is an epidemic in schools all over the country. It needs to be stopped early and hard. These punks need to be punished to the fullest extent of the law possible. This needs to be used as a teaching moment to school admins and teachers all over to get their attention to take bullying more seriously.
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No, it doesn't. What needs to be done is to let kids be kids and teach them how to deal with mean people. Because coddling them until they're 18 isn't going to help them any when they get into the real world and realize that some people are ****ing assholes.

If things escalate to physical assaults then of course action should be taken. But name calling?? Give me a break.

The "kids will be kids" excuse to ignore this has to be replaced with "we need to protect our kids". It's our responsibility to stop bullying. God damn, this is our children we're talking about. These are serious crimes we're talking about. This ain't "harassment"!
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No. We don't need to protect our kids like that. We need to stop coddling them and give them real tools and real values to survive in a world where the teachers and mommy and daddy don't run interference every time someone calls them a bad name.
 
Redress said:
Only if you choose to be insulted. It means what it means, if you want to read extra meaning into it, feel free.
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Yes, I do choose to be insulted by someone considering consensual sex to be some kind of rape.
 
roguenuke said:
Those reactions don't always work with teenagers. And the harassment continued for at least 3 months (this is from one of the news stories, but another said Sept til she killed herself in Jan). Teenagers are more easily intimidated than adults and, in her particular case, less likely to have a friend there to assure her that doing those things you said would actually work.

And what you would endure before going to the cops is not necessarily the same as what someone else could endure. Also, since we don't know all the details of the case, there is no telling what kind of things were specifically being done to her outside of school. They had her cell phone number, so maybe they were calling her a lot. It is also possible what I said earlier is true, that they could have placed an ad on Craig's list from her, with her phone number on it, and she could have been also getting calls from that.

I have no idea what all the details of the case are, but the DA obviously felt she had a good case. I simply don't agree with you that harassment should not be a criminal offense. Intentional acts meant to cause emotional distress should not be overlooked by our justice system just because they are not doing actual physical harm.

It's not the fact that they did a few things, it's the number of them and the number of things they did, not to mention the pure meanness to all of it. There is no excuse for anyone to act like that towards another person, and she certainly should not have had to just "ignore it" for months.
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If she had ignored it, it wouldn't have gone on for months. That's the point.

And, it's easy enough to change her phone number.

Emotional distress is another BS legal claim. I mean, jesus.. seriously?? Someone's feelings get hurt and that's supposed to be cause for legal action??

I'm NOT defending what the kids did. They're ****wads. But they do not deserve criminal records for being ****wads.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
Then ignore it. Let it be. You should not let what is beyond your powers affect you, because doing so is a waste of energy and yields no positive results.



If something like that seriously bothers you then you can just change your phone number. Duh.
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Ignore it until when exactly? Until one of them actually does do something that causes physical injury? And why should she have to take that abuse? As a society, we would never allow her parents to do this kind of stuff to her, not even a little bit of this stuff, if it were known to occur. Heck, we wouldn't allow any adults to do this kind of stuff to her. So why should she have to just "ignore it" simply because it is coming from her peers? This is not normal teenage bullying, that is easily ignored. And if you can't see that, well then I feel sorry for your lack of compassion for this girl and cases like hers.
 
rivrrat said:
Yes, I do choose to be insulted by someone considering consensual sex to be some kind of rape.
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It's time to bring out my friend: :2brickwal

There are none so blind as those who choose to blind themselves.
 
rivrrat said:
Well, *I* do. Consensual sex isn't rape. And saying that it is, is insulting.


I'm not saying they aren't ****wads. I'm simply saying that being a ****wad is no reason for criminal charges.
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fine, we disagree. we don't know the details behind the charge, nor do we yet know the full story. i think this was much more than average bullying, else charges wouldn't have been filed.

kids DO have a right to feel safe at school, period. i rasied my children to stand up for themselves, but everyone doesn't have the same tools, and i think these nasty kids deserve whatever the law throws at them.
 
roguenuke said:
Ignore it until when exactly? Until one of them actually does do something that causes physical injury? And why should she have to take that abuse? As a society, we would never allow her parents to do this kind of stuff to her, not even a little bit of this stuff, if it were known to occur. Heck, we wouldn't allow any adults to do this kind of stuff to her. So why should she have to just "ignore it" simply because it is coming from her peers? This is not normal teenage bullying, that is easily ignored. And if you can't see that, well then I feel sorry for your lack of compassion for this girl and cases like hers.
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It's completely normal bullying. I haven't seen anything out of the ordinary yet. Maybe something else will come out, but so far... I've not seen anything that I didn't experience, that my sister didn't experience, that my friends didn't experience both as a teenager and as an adult.
 
roguenuke said:
Ignore it until when exactly?
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Ignore it until she graduates.

Until one of them actually does do something that causes physical injury?
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If that happened then they could be charged with the crime.

And why should she have to take that abuse?
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Because it is beyond her control.

As a society, we would never allow her parents to do this kind of stuff to her, not even a little bit of this stuff, if it were known to occur. Heck, we wouldn't allow any adults to do this kind of stuff to her. So why should she have to just "ignore it" simply because it is coming from her peers?
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Because it is legal, and if it is not then she can press charges, but that would probably only make the matters worse.

This is not normal teenage bullying, that is easily ignored. And if you can't see that, well then I feel sorry for your lack of compassion for this girl and cases like hers.
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It has nothing to do with the "degree of bullying". That's a silly argument.

EDIT: Actually, could you please tell me why this isn't "normal teenage bullying"? What makes it "more"?
 
rivrrat said:
I've been a kid too, ya know. And bullied. I seriously doubt that bullies "these days" are any different. I was followed, had things thrown at me, called names, threatened with violence. What I did worked perfectly. And I was 14.
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These kids didn't "threaten" violence. They committed violence!

Statutory rape isn't rape.
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It is according to the LAW. What is your problem with women being raped? Do you seriously believe that all statutory rape is consensual? Seriously:confused:

No, it doesn't. What needs to be done is to let kids be kids and teach them how to deal with mean people. Because coddling them until they're 18 isn't going to help them any when they get into the real world and realize that some people are ****ing assholes.

If things escalate to physical assaults then of course action should be taken. But name calling?? Give me a break.
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And just how is a teenage girl, maybe 90 pounds, supposed to "deal" with those "mean kids" when boys much bigger and stronger than her are beating on her, throwing soda cans at her head, raping her? How should she deal with many other girsl beating on her? Huh:confused:

Sounds like you have no clue what this story is about or what actually is going on in our kids' schools. I suggest you educate yourself on this. I'd bet the farm that if your son or daughter came to you complaining of being bullied or raped that you would have a serious change of attitude.

No. We don't need to protect our kids like that. We need to stop coddling them and give them real tools and real values to survive in a world where the teachers and mommy and daddy don't run interference every time someone calls them a bad name.
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It seems you aren't very familiar with a parents' responsibility. Is this the advice you would give to this dead teenager's parents? That they shouldn't have "coddled" her so much? :doh
 
ADK Forever said:
These kids didn't "threaten" violence. They committed violence!
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What violence? Throwing an empty Red Bull can at her?

And just how is a teenage girl, maybe 90 pounds, supposed to "deal" with those "mean kids" when boys much bigger and stronger than her are beating on her, throwing soda cans at her head, raping her?
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This is why calling it "statutory rape" is stupid. Also, where is this "beating on her"? And what is abnormal about throwing stuff? Kids did that all the time when I was in school.
 
ADK_Forever said:
These kids didn't "threaten" violence. They committed violence!
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IF they did, then the should certainly be charged with the physical assaults.

It is according to the LAW. What is your problem with women being raped? Do you seriously believe that all statutory rape is consensual? Seriously:confused:
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That's pretty much the definition of it. If it wasn't consensual, it would just be rape.

And just how is a teenage girl, maybe 90 pounds, supposed to "deal" with those "mean kids" when boys much bigger and stronger than her are beating on her, throwing soda cans at her head, raping her? How should she deal with many other girsl beating on her? Huh:confused:
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As I said, IF they did physically assault her, then the cops should have stepped in right then.

Sounds like you have no clue what this story is about or what actually is going on in our kids' schools. I suggest you educate yourself on this. I'd bet the farm that if your son or daughter came to you complaining of being bullied or raped that you would have a serious change of attitude.
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Bullied? No, I wouldn't have a change of attitude. Raped? Sure I would, but then the cops would have been involved and the person who raped her would have been charged right then and there.

However, what's being alleged is STATUTORY rape. Whole different ballgame.


It seems you aren't very familiar with a parents' responsibility. Is this the advice you would give to this dead teenager's parents? That they shouldn't have "coddled" her so much? :doh
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I would give no advice to the dead teen's parents. At this point, there's no advice to give. What they "should have done" is not useful to them at this point.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
Ignore it until she graduates.



If that happened then they could be charged with the crime.



Because it is beyond her control.



Because it is legal, and if it is not then she can press charges, but that would probably only make the matters worse.



It has nothing to do with the "degree of bullying". That's a silly argument.
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Make her endure this for 4 years? I don't think so.

There is also a charge to cover this type of bullying. It is called criminal harassment. A charge in place to try to prevent cases like this from getting to actual physical harm.

So from adults, its beyond her control so she shouldn't have to ignore it, but from 9 or more teenagers, some older than her by a few years, it isn't beyond her control, and she should have to ignore it? That doesn't make any sense. How is their bullying in any way within her control? And what they were doing is not legal, it was criminal harassment. And it would have been a very good thing if she would have pressed charges before or instead of committing suicide.

And the degree of bullying has everything to do with it. If it were just name calling at school, that, I can agree, can be ignored, but that is not what this was, in any way. These teenagers were verging on, if not already over, the realm of obsessive behavior, from the information we were given.
 
Make her endure this for 4 years? I don't think so.

There is also a charge to cover this type of bullying. It is called criminal harassment. A charge in place to try to prevent cases like this from getting to actual physical harm.
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There is no "making her". It just is.

As for the criminal charge, like I said earlier, doing something like that tends to aggravate the situation, not alleviate it, but it was definitely an option for her to follow.

So from adults, its beyond her control so she shouldn't have to ignore it, but from 9 or more teenagers, some older than her by a few years, it isn't beyond her control, and she should have to ignore it?
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What? The actions of others are beyond your control. The only thing you can do is to give off positive energy and hope some of it can stick (i.e. attempt to influence their actions), but if they still don't change their ways then there's nothing you can do about it.

How is their bullying in any way within her control?
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My point was that it was not in her control, and so she should not let it affect her.

And the degree of bullying has everything to do with it. If it were just name calling at school, that, I can agree, can be ignored, but that is not what this was, in any way. These teenagers were verging on, if not already over, the realm of obsessive behavior, from the information we were given.
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What specifically were they doing that made it "worse" than "normal bullying"?
 
Khayembii Communique said:
There is no "making her". It just is.

As for the criminal charge, like I said earlier, doing something like that tends to aggravate the situation, not alleviate it, but it was definitely an option for her to follow.



What? The actions of others are beyond your control. The only thing you can do is to give off positive energy and hope some of it can stick (i.e. attempt to influence their actions), but if they still don't change their ways then there's nothing you can do about it.



My point was that it was not in her control, and so she should not let it affect her.



What specifically were they doing that made it "worse" than "normal bullying"?
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We will most likely not reach an agreement on this, because I fully believe that these teenagers deserve the charges they have against them. But I will respond to this post.

If it is occurring, and no one is doing anything about it, then yes, she is being made to endure it, because she has to be at school.

If she does not know that she can do anything about the bullying like press charges, then she can't do those things. She had just came to this country from Ireland, how is she supposed to know that she can actually get these students in trouble, especially up to pressing charges, without someone telling her that it is an option? Most students who have been here their whole lives probably don't realize this would be an option to excessive bullying.

So how is it different if it were adults that were harassing her like the students were doing? Neither case is within her control, and neither should require that she would just have to endure the abuse and/or ignore it.

When I was in high school, normal bullying generally took place at school, with the possible exception of teasing at bus stops or on the bus or if the others happened to run into the person alone or in a group of others who were being bullied at the mall or other local hang out. And it was generally 1 or 2 bullies. And the bullies didn't go out of their way to find you everyday, or almost every day, for 3 months straight. Nine or more students being involved is excessive. And they were stalking her at school, according to the reports. To me, it sounds like there was at least one, if not a group of them, waiting for her at most, if not all, of her classes or at her locker just to torment her.

Hopefully, these teenagers will be found guilty for some, if not all, of their charges, and face punishments that are appropriate. If that happens, then maybe other students, parents, and school administrators will realize that bullying that goes this far should not be tolerated. And maybe we can work to get programs set up that make students see all the consequences of bullying, including the consequences to the one being bullied and what could happen to those who are doing the bullying. My hope would be that it will also help to convince other student who witness bullying to stand up for their classmates, even if the one/ones doing the bullying are their "friends".
 
Khayembii Communique said:
Eckhart Tolle was clinically depressed, too.

I'm a strong believer in the idea that humans have control over their "mental filter." External stimuli are filtered through a series of mental structures which we have ourselves constructed over the course of our development; these mental structures are inevitable in all of us, and by many they are constructed unconsciously. However, they can also be refined and restructured through conscious thought. This ability to structure and restructure ourselves consciously is one of the most significant things that separates us from all other beings on earth.

External stimuli are taken in through the senses and filtered through these mental structures, and because these structures can be consciously conditioned this means that individual interpretation of this stimuli is a conscious act. This is why you see people that have a negative outlook on life continually view things in a negative manner; they set up their mental structures as to filter everything in such a way, and so they will keep on seeing the world in that way until they consciously change their structures.

If Viktor Frankl was able to find meaning in life through his conscious restructuring of his mental structures while in a NAZI concentration camp, I am more than confident that this girl could have in a Massachusetts high school.


Of course to everyone here that doesn't believe that humans are endowed with this incredible gift of enlightenment, this girl seems like a helpless victim. I wonder what would be the perception of her, though, if she brought a gun to school and shot up the place? Would she still be the "victim"? I highly doubt it. In that case the bullying would only be secondary, and those currently arguing against my point would paint her as a monster and condemn her. Yet the only difference between that scenario and the one that actually played out was her conscious decision.

If she kills herself, then she is a helpless victim and the "bullies" are to blame. If she kills others, then she is a monster and she herself is the only one to blame (consequently the "bullies" would then probably become the victims in their minds). So the outlook on the bullying is entirely relative to her actions, which means that this position (and this sort of "ex post" moral judgment) is entirely baseless, as it does not look at the bullying itself outside of the consequences.
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You are confusing behavior with emotion. Folks may have control over the behaviors that could result from their emotions, but they cannot control those emotions, themselves. When you combine clinical depression, a chemical imbalance, with the impulsivity and over emotionality of adolescence you have a strong potential for behaviors like this.

Also, different people are hard-wired differently and also have different experiences from which to assess a situation. That is why two people can have different reactions to the same scenario.

Finally, bullying is bullying. Her response is irrelevant.
 
rivrrat said:
Simple. Ignore them. You've said yourself that they're looking for a reaction. If you don't give them one, they get bored and move on.

Second way, be nice to them. Smile, wave, tell them good morning, etc. Again, not the reaction they're looking for.

I've found both of these tactics to be extremely successful in getting bullies to stop bullying.
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Just because that works for you, doesn't mean it works for others in other situations. I've seen each of these scenarios, or a combination, fail miserably. Some folks aren't looking for a reaction from the victim. Some are looking for their own self-gratification or for the admiration of others for being attacking. The latter is especially prevalent in situations like these, so your suggestions have no effect.

Also, we are talking about teens, here. Completely different mindset.
 
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CaptainCourtesy said:
Just because that works for you, doesn't mean it works for others in other situations. I've seen each of these scenarios, or a combination, fail miserably. Some folks aren't looking for a reaction from the victim. Some are looking for their own self-gratification or for the admiration of others for being attacking. The latter is especially prevalent in situations like these, so your suggestions have no effect.

Also, we are talking about teens, here. Completely different mindset.
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I was talking about teens too.
 

Was the rape charge unrelated to the attack but instead to her previous personal relationship with an older classmate?
 
rivrrat said:
IF they did, then the should certainly be charged with the physical assaults.
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We're talking about a 9th grader who is new to the area, 3 months I believe, from a different country. You expect her to report this activity to the cops? I don't think you understand teenagers at all.
 
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