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Thread: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

  1. #71
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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    This I think is thinking which has come in since 9/11 and is really an exaggeration which allows for an exaggerated and inappropriate response.
    Alexa,

    Let me try to clarify my position.

    Nations have an inherent right of self-defense, but they also have obligations. Exercise of the right of self-defense does not mean a nation is freed from its basic obligations. For example, following 9/11, the U.S. had a right to undertake a more aggressive counterterrorism campaign, but such a campaign had to be conducted within the framework of its constitution, not to mention the Laws of War and other instruments to which the U.S. is a party.

    A recent court case concering electronic surveillance reaffirmed the paramount importance of fundamental liberties, with the Northern California District Court ruling that the Executive Branch could not treat the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Law's (FISA) requirements as optional. A similar concept applies when it comes to protecting the lives of civilians. Just because a nation is free to combat terrorism does not mean that it can ignore established principles concerning civilian protections e.g., that they cannot be deliberately targeted.

    Thankfully the British Government did not see any need for it to be anything more than a police issue. They saw no need to torture and make people disappear...

    We did not respond by random acts of inhumanity. The British public would not have stood for it.
    We agree on that point. I believe the U.S. and other countries that have only recently faced terrorism can learn much from the UK's example, among others.

    Where I disagree with you is in where I see an implied agreement that it is right that there should now be none.
    Although I expect a given response that the nascent liberalization campaign will likely be suspended, I don't agree with such a move. I still favor liberalization to the large extent that it is still possible. I don't believe major elements of liberalization and required counterterrorism measures are necessarily mutually exclusive.

    ...that seems to mean people disappearing, being killed illegally, being beaten and tortured.
    I favor aggressive policing, intelligence, prosecution, and targeted military operations. I do not support torture or extra-judicial conduct. There's a body of research that finds that torture does not yield useful information. At the same time, it damages a nation's reputation.

    ... I find your belief that the Umarov and their organisation is responsible for what Russia does now wrong.
    Umarov and his terrorist organization are responsible for provoking a Russian response and difficulties it might cause. However, were Russia to commit war crimes or other crimes against humanity, those who commit such acts are responsible for those crimes. Russia's obligations have not been rendered irrelevant.

    Hopefully, the above makes things a bit more clear where I stand on the issues.

  2. #72
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    F107HyperSabr's Avatar
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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    FWIW, that is a line of argument that rationalizes any atrocities, war crimes or other crimes against humanity that may be perpetrated during a conflict. For good reason, the Laws of War reject that kind of reasoning, barring the deliberate targeting of civilians, prohibiting indiscriminate bombardment, among other heinous acts. Those who carry out such indefensible acts should rightly be brought to account.
    These words of yours I agree with = "FWIW, that is a line of argument that rationalizes any atrocities, war crimes or other crimes against humanity that may be perpetrated during a conflict." and the best is "Those who carry out such indefensible acts should rightly be brought to account"


    The reason is that I agree with the two sentances from your post above is this=

    "[html]The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор; translation: murder by hunger) was a famine in the Ukrainian SSR from 1932–1933, during which millions of inhabitants died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[1][2][3][4] Estimates on the total number of casualties within Soviet Ukraine range mostly from 2.6 million[5][6] to 10 million.[7] Primarily; as a result of the economic and trade policies instituted by Joseph Stalin , millions of Ukrainians starved to death over the course of a single year. The causes of the famine are a controversial issue and scholars disagree on the relative importance of natural factors[8][9][1][10], bad economic policies or engineered measures towards Ukrainian peasants. The famine was part of a wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933.
    The root cause of the Holodomor is a subject of scholarly debate.[11] Some scholars have argued that the Soviet policies that caused the famine may have been designed as an attack on the rise of Ukrainian nationalism, and therefore fall under the legal definition of genocide.[12][13][14][15][16] The Holodomor is also known as the "terror-famine in Ukraine"[17][18] and "famine-genocide in Ukraine".[19] ..................[13] [/html]

    I am waiting for the time when "indefensible acts should rightly be brought to account" . I want the "indefensible acts " the murder by hunger by the terror weapon of forced famine committed by Russians "brought to account" .

    I do not want revenge for some irrational reason nor do I hate just to hate out of ethnic comflict I want the "indefensible acts " by Russians "brought to account" .
    Last edited by F107HyperSabr; 04-01-10 at 08:39 PM.
    I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us f107HyperSabr

  3. #73
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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    I am waiting for the time when "indefensible acts should rightly be brought to account" . I want the "indefensible acts " the murder by hunger by the terror weapon of forced famine committed by Russians "brought to account" .

    I do not want revenge for some irrational reason nor do I hate just to hate out of ethnic comflict I want the "indefensible acts " by Russians "brought to account" .
    In my view, there is little doubt that the artificial famine--artificial because it did not result from purely natural factors--was the result of deliberate Soviet policy. Those who were responsible, Stalin and those who carried out his work, are dead.

    I fully agree that the history/facts associated with the cruel nature of Soviet communism, its horrific policies, and the huge number of deaths that resulted from that totalitarian dictatorship should never be forgotten. A good understanding of what happened is key to reducing prospects of a recurrence at some point in history in some part of the world, as human nature remains relatively constant and the tendency among some to try to accumulate near-total power has not dissipated.

    However, as previously noted, today's generation of Russians is not responsible for Stalin's monstrous acts, just as the contemporary generation of Germans is not responsible for the Holocaust. Precisely because they had no role in those historic crimes against humanity, they should not be held accountable. Doing so is not justice. It is naked vengeance for the crimes of others.

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