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Thread: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Fox_86 View Post
    Right let's forget about the thousands of Chechen teenagers who were dragged out of their homes and they never came back. Russians army kills innocent civilians all the time with impunity. Its a shame that people don't have an idea of what is going on in Chechnya and they are just labeling it as "terrorism". Basically anyone who says this is "terrorism," has no idea what is going on in Chechnya and Russian relations.
    Honestly I didn't know what is going on in Chechnya or how the Russians are treating them. However, terrorism still isn't the right thing to do. the people who were targeted and died were innocent and did not deserve to have their lives robbed from them. The Russian government isn't the best for human rights, but why should innocents have to die because of the Russian government's choices? Those people on the train were innocent and didn't deserve their deaths.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Honestly I didn't know what is going on in Chechnya or how the Russians are treating them. However, terrorism still isn't the right thing to do. the people who were targeted and died were innocent and did not deserve to have their lives robbed from them. The Russian government isn't the best for human rights, but why should innocents have to die because of the Russian government's choices? Those people on the train were innocent and didn't deserve their deaths.
    Exactly. At the end of the day, is it the Russian authorities screwing over the Chechans, or is it innocent Russian civilians?
    If you think the cruelty one has endured should be revenged through innocent children, women, fathers and husbands, god help us all (not you dude, generally speaking of course).

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Honestly I didn't know what is going on in Chechnya or how the Russians are treating them. However, terrorism still isn't the right thing to do. the people who were targeted and died were innocent and did not deserve to have their lives robbed from them. The Russian government isn't the best for human rights, but why should innocents have to die because of the Russian government's choices? Those people on the train were innocent and didn't deserve their deaths.
    U and Metalgear are conviently forgetting about the deaths of innocent Chechens, and is that not terrorism? Nobody likes to see the deaths of innocent people, but what do you expect from people who have lost their whole families? Do you expect them to just sit by and forget? I agree that that the attack should have happened on a government structure and that the civilians should not have died.
    But what can you expect from females whose children were taken from them by the Russians and they do not know if they are dead or alive? Imagine having to go through that for years and you do not know the whereabouts of your child? What would you do?
    I feel that the Chechens would have attacked government buildings but they do not have the necessary power, and that the war method they are following does not allow for them to attack structures that are heavly defended against any possible attack.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Fox_86 View Post
    U and Metalgear are conviently forgetting about the deaths of innocent Chechens, and is that not terrorism? Nobody likes to see the deaths of innocent people, but what do you expect from people who have lost their whole families? Do you expect them to just sit by and forget? I agree that that the attack should have happened on a government structure and that the civilians should not have died.
    But what can you expect from females whose children were taken from them by the Russians and they do not know if they are dead or alive? Imagine having to go through that for years and you do not know the whereabouts of your child? What would you do?
    I feel that the Chechens would have attacked government buildings but they do not have the necessary power, and that the war method they are following does not allow for them to attack structures that are heavly defended against any possible attack.
    Killing innocent civilians who have got nothing to do with their situation is a monstrous act, made by monsters, who deserve no sympathy from a human being.
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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    The death toll has now risen to 39.
    Vlad Putin has once again put his (sic: Reputation) on the line and said he will find who was responsible.

    I expect a sharp rise number of people from Chechnya who reside in Moscow being tortured.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post

    I expect a sharp rise number of people from Chechnya who reside in Moscow being tortured.
    Good point. And in Chechyna

    In written legal complaints, Mr. Israilov described many brutal acts by Mr. Kadyrov and his subordinates, including executions of illegally detained men. One executed man, Mr. Israilov said, had been beaten with a shovel handle by Mr. Kadyrov and Adam Delimkhanov, now a member of Russiaís Parliament. Another prisoner, the defector said, was sodomized by a prominent police officer and at Mr. Kadyrovís order put to death.

    Mr. Israilov said he and others had been tortured by Mr. Kadyrov, who amused himself by personally giving prisoners electric shocks or firing pistols at their feet
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/01/wo...01torture.html
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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Alexa,

    Most ethnic conflicts can be very brutal. The one(s) in the Caucasus region are no exception. That some of the Russian military operations were heavy handed, to say the least, is well-established. That the terrorists engaged in extremely brutal conduct is also well-established.

    I believe most concur that at some point in time, a political dimension that accommodates both the needs of the Chechen residents (greater autonomy and economic development) and needs of Russia (vital interests in the Caucasus and preservation of Russia's territorial integrity) would be beneficial.

    Unfortunately, so long as the terrorism persists, not just in the Chechen region but also across the Caucasus, such an added dimension will likely not be possible. In fact, just days before the senseless terrorist attack in Moscow's Metro, Russia's deputy prime minister had discussed an aggressive socioeconomic development program, including the taking into account human rights, in the North Caucasus region, including the Chechen region, according to BBC Monitoring. That campaign has likely been disrupted by the terrorist attacks and tougher counterterrorism measures are probably the more likely route now.

    The terrorism cannot nor should not be rationalized. Rationalizing the deliberate actions of an entity that run counter to the Laws of War establishes a precedent for others to rationalize similar conduct. It also grants de facto license to others to engage in similar practices. The end result is only reduced welfare for civilians. Therefore, even as a political dimension would be helpful, I believe the world should support Russia's quest to eradicate the terrorism so that such a political solution can become viable. Needless to say, like all combatants, Russia also has a responsibility to act in a fashion consistent with the Laws of War.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Alexa,

    Most ethnic conflicts can be very brutal. The one(s) in the Caucasus region are no exception. That some of the Russian military operations were heavy handed, to say the least, is well-established. That the terrorists engaged in extremely brutal conduct is also well-established.

    I believe most concur that at some point in time, a political dimension that accommodates both the needs of the Chechen residents (greater autonomy and economic development) and needs of Russia (vital interests in the Caucasus and preservation of Russia's territorial integrity) would be beneficial.

    Unfortunately, so long as the terrorism persists, not just in the Chechen region but also across the Caucasus, such an added dimension will likely not be possible. In fact, just days before the senseless terrorist attack in Moscow's Metro, Russia's deputy prime minister had discussed an aggressive socioeconomic development program, including the taking into account human rights, in the North Caucasus region, including the Chechen region, according to BBC Monitoring. That campaign has likely been disrupted by the terrorist attacks and tougher counterterrorism measures are probably the more likely route now.

    The terrorism cannot nor should not be rationalized. Rationalizing the deliberate actions of an entity that run counter to the Laws of War establishes a precedent for others to rationalize similar conduct. It also grants de facto license to others to engage in similar practices. The end result is only reduced welfare for civilians. Therefore, even as a political dimension would be helpful, I believe the world should support Russia's quest to eradicate the terrorism so that such a political solution can become viable. Needless to say, like all combatants, Russia also has a responsibility to act in a fashion consistent with the Laws of War.
    I do not defend the use of suicide bombing or the deliberate killing of civilians. (I don't much agree with the killing of anyone except in self defence)

    We supported the Chechans prior to 9/11. We saw then that what was happening to them was wrong.

    They are currently being run by someone sent by Russia and people disappear, get murdered, get tortured and so on.

    I personally see no more reason to defend that than I do civilians killing civilians. Both are wrong, very wrong.

    Beslam affected me deeply. I just could not believe that anyone would do this. I have a website, nothing to do with politics, but I was so moved, so horrified at what happened that I put an article on it - took it down when my website was overwhelmed with Saudi visitors!

    Then I saw a documentary on Chechynia and I saw how they lived and I listened to them and I was repulsed when some of them spoke of Beslam and said they didn't mind. Their children had gone. They wanted the Russians to feel their pain and I was appalled.

    I could not accept that. I could not understand it because the people who were saying this were ordinary human beings like you and me with families or who had had families. They were not your idea of serial killers. They were extremely harmed.

    The reality is that had it not been for 9/11 almost certainly the West would have supported them and had some influence on them.

    What I see is people who have lost their humanity.

    What I also see is the background which led them to lose their humanity.

    While I am sure you are right as long as the terrorists continue, the brutalising of the Chechyan people will continue. It appears, they no longer care. Whether or not they are being terrorists, the brutality against them continues.

    I would though be interested if you have a link to the human rights having been implemented. I did find some BBC material on the Russian's having moved out and going to implement a program of rebuilding and so on but I seem to remember it also spoke of ongoing abuse of human rights.

    I am simply trying to understand it. I cannot easily. The conclusion I have come to is that this is what happens if you push people too far.

    I am open to change my mind if there is reason to.

    I think one of our MP's once said that terrorism was not acceptable when people have a vote. Well the Chechens do have a vote but everyone believes it was rigged, so they do not really.

    That is not said to justify what they did because I find it unjustifiable but it could be a good way to start to stop it and to get people to start taking responsibility for their own actions again.
    Last edited by alexa; 03-30-10 at 08:28 PM.
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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    The death toll has now risen to 39.
    Vlad Putin has once again put his (sic: Reputation) on the line and said he will find who was responsible.

    I expect a sharp rise number of people from Chechnya who reside in Moscow being tortured.
    Dont forget this gives Putin an excuse to grab more power. Remember the Beslan school incident?
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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I would though be interested if you have a link to the human rights having been implemented. I did find some BBC material on the Russian's having moved out and going to implement a program of rebuilding and so on but I seem to remember it also spoke of ongoing abuse of human rights.
    Alexa,

    Just so it is clear, I did not suggest or mean to suggest that you condone the terrorist attacks.

    With respect to human rights, according to BBC Monitoring on 24 March, which is a subscription service that translates various foreign language news stories, the human rights improvements were supposed to be a part of the larger set of socioeconomic reforms to be undertaken. My guess is that any implementation was either in the very early stages or intended in the near future when the overall strategy was carried out. Now, it is quite likely that any such efforts will be put on hold, with an emphasis placed on counterterrorism.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 03-30-10 at 09:38 PM.

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