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Thread: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    It's a shame what happened in Russia. My prayers go to the families of the victims. Terrorism is a very real thing and is still a threat, the world needs to realize this. Russia may not have the best human rights record, but terrorism is never the right thing to do in retaliation. Killing innocent civilians on a train isn't going to solve anything.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The reality that the world is not idealistic and not every person/entity/state has peaceful/benign intentions is precisely why states should not be deprived of exercising their legitimate and inherent right of self-defense.
    Self defense is one thing and I have no objection to it.

    Subjecting a separate nation to murder / rape / genocide of it's populace (That only desires to be be free from Russia) is something totally different.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post

    Russia and the Russians have inflicted centuries of death, destruction via terrorism upon peoples such as the Chechens therefore a little bit of retaliation by two patriotic woman is hardly enough retribution for those monsters the Russians.
    Russia has had control of Chechnya since the 1780s. It has been a very long time since Chechnya has been free. While I agree that Russia was very ruthless when the Chechens tried to free themselves, it was expected. In Russia the worth of a human life is not so much.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    My thoughts and prayers go out to all the innocent persons who were killed or injured in the Moscow terrorist attacks.

    Russia has been involved in a long fight against terrorists. Numerous terrorist attacks have been carried out on its own soil. Although Russia has made progress against the terrorists from multiple organizations, much more remains to be done. Hopefully, Russia will ultimately be successful in bringing an end to the threat of terrorism against its people and the world will give full support to Russia in its ongoing fight against terrorism.

    When it comes to Russia's efforts to fight terrorism, and the same applies with respect to any state that seeks to combat terrorism, outside states should refrain from interfering in those states' legitimate exercise of their inherent right of self-defense. Although terrorist groups have their own ideologies and objectives, both of which can vary widely, there is a larger common interest when it comes to combating terrorism. By deliberately targeting civilians or engaging in indiscriminate bombardment, terrorists violate the Laws of War. Allowing for exemptions for terrorist groups creates a precedent under which it is permissible for that party to violate the Laws of War. Those who establish such a precedent cannot legitimately argue when others violate the Laws of War, as they have surrendered their standing on that issue when it comes to terrorist entities. Of course, in the long-run, such an outcome of accommodating terrorist entities can only encourage greater instability and endanger more civilian lives than would otherwise be the case.
    I wouldn't call the Chechens terrorists for fighting for an independent nation. I would call them "freedom fighters" like the founders of this nation that started the fight against the English. The majority of the Chechens want to be free from Russia, but the Russians' won't let them. So what do you think is bound to happen? The Chechens already lost the convential war against Russia twice. Now they have to stick with an unconvential warfare. The Chechens are nothing like the Taliban or Al Quada that we are fighting.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    It's a shame what happened in Russia. My prayers go to the families of the victims. Terrorism is a very real thing and is still a threat, the world needs to realize this. Russia may not have the best human rights record, but terrorism is never the right thing to do in retaliation. Killing innocent civilians on a train isn't going to solve anything.
    Right let's forget about the thousands of Chechen teenagers who were dragged out of their homes and they never came back. Russians army kills innocent civilians all the time with impunity. Its a shame that people don't have an idea of what is going on in Chechnya and they are just labeling it as "terrorism". Basically anyone who says this is "terrorism," has no idea what is going on in Chechnya and Russian relations.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    I’m deeply shocked by current inhumane attacks in Moscow Metro. But I cannot agree with those, who consider that Muscovites have again become targets of Chechen militants because of ineffective work of Russian authorities and security services that cannot get over local Muslim extremism since 2002, when Chechen separatists began actively exporting their bombing campaign to Moscow (Moscow Attack a Test for Putin and His Record Against Terror - NYTimes.com). For me it is clear that these attacks simply mark an increase in terrorist activity not only in the Russia’s Northern Caucasus as a result of killing several leading terrorists by Russian security services there in recent weeks (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...608580444.html), but also in other countries, struggled against terrorism now.
    It is no mere chance US cities stepped up subway security after suicide bombings in Moscow’s underground (U.S. cities step up subway security). And Americans are right, increasing additional security in their subway system. I’m sure that it is time for our EU to think of it either, because at this time no one can be secured from terrorist attacks!

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Fox_86 View Post
    I wouldn't call the Chechens terrorists for fighting for an independent nation. I would call them "freedom fighters" like the founders of this nation that started the fight against the English.

    ...The Chechens are nothing like the Taliban or Al Quada that we are fighting.
    The term "terrorists" is wholly appropriate.

    By no reasonable definition are Moscow's apartment buildings, Moscow's Metro, the Dubrovka Theater, the Beslan school, among other targets hit by the terrorists, military objectives.

    Furthermore, consistent with international law e.g., the International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings, a terrorist is any person who:

    ... unlawfully and intentionally delivers, places, discharges or detonates an explosive or other lethal device in, into or against a place of public use, a State or government facility, a public transportation system or an infrastructure facility:

    (a) With the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury; or

    (b) With the intent to cause extensive destruction of such a place, facility or system, where such destruction results in or is likely to result in major economic loss.


    In contrast, on several occasions, General George Washington issued orders to his troops to avoid harm to civilians. In no way, shape, or form should the terrorists responsible for yesterday's atrocity in Moscow's Metro be equated with the nation's Founders. The Founders did not deliberately seek to harm innocent civilians. The terrorists do. The Founders sought to establish a free and liberal republic. The terrorists seek an illiberal regime that would lack basic freedoms.

    Finally, there are links between the Chechen terrorist entities and Al Qaeda. For example, the September 6, 2004 edition of USA Today published a story that, in part, noted:

    Ties between Chechen radicals and al-Qaeda stretch back to the first Chechen war of independence (1994-96). A radical element began to develop in the late 1990s. By 1999, when Basayev, a Chechen warlord, invaded Russian territory in Dagestan, prompting a second war, it became clear that Islamic radicals dominated Chechen rebel groups.

    In sum, I hope that Russia will ultimately be successful in bringing an end to the threat of terrorism against its people and the world will give full support to Russia in its ongoing fight against terrorism. Once stability is restored and the scourge of terrorism is largely eliminated, I favor a political framework that would provide a reasonable degree of autonomy for Russia's Chechen region to accommodate the core desires of that area's population, but also sustain Russia's vital interests in the Caucasus, including that of its own territorial integrity.

    Such an outcome is not possible so long as terrorists continue to prey on innocent civilians or have the capability to do so. That the Moscow Metro terrorist attack occurred not too long after President Medvedev had declared an end to counterterrorism operations and had taken steps toward the easing of security measures suggests that the terrorists responsible might well have perceived weakening Russian resolve and exploited that situation. Hence, elimination of the terrorist threat to the largest extent possible will probably be a necessary precondition for any future policy relaxation. Before then, terrorist entities will likely exploit any such easing in ruthless and brutal fashion with total disregard for the lives of the innocent civilians they target.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    I think that we should not ignore the horrendous brutality the Russians have shown towards the Chechen's. I think it is wrong to gloss over that.

    I also think that in the situation they are in, it is understandable that they would wish to bring attention to their plight by terrorism.

    What I think is wrong, both morally and as a strategy, is deliberately killing civilians.

    A much better strategy is to plant a bomb and give warning that it is there.

    By killing civilians they leave the door open for people just to see them as brutal murderers - which they are in fact.

    However, that does not mean that Russia should be absolved of what her troops did to those people either. Chechen's too are human. They people who were raped were innocents. The children who died were innocent. All who were needless killed and brutally treated deserved better.

    Now there are suspicions that Doku Umarov, the 45-year-old self-styled emir of the Russian North Caucasus, is taking the battle into Russia itself.

    Until now Umarov, a veteran of Chechnya's nationalist fight with Russia, has been against killing civilians. He was critical of the Beslan attack in which Chechen rebels took 1,200 people as hostages at a school in Beslan in 2004.

    In the ensuing gun battles between the rebels and Russian forces, 334 hostages were killed, more than 100 of them schoolchildren. Only one militant survived.

    While he has not claimed responsibility for Monday's subway bombings, if he is behind them, it would demonstrate a change in tactics due partly, analysts suspect, to a reliance on funding to continue the fight from radical Islamists such as al Qaeda.

    "It's got to the stage where the Chechens in particular are potentially looking out to the global jihad for that level of support," said Hunter.

    "By aligning himself to al Qaeda or other members of global jihad it would certainly be one source of securing that funding."
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe...echnya.russia/
    Last edited by alexa; 03-30-10 at 12:27 PM.
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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Alexa,

    As noted earlier, I favor a political framework that would provide a reasonable degree of autonomy for Russia's Chechen region to accommodate the core desires of that area's population, but also sustain Russia's vital interests in the Caucasus, including that of its own territorial integrity. However, the terrorist attacks reduce prospects for such an outcome. In response to the terrorist attacks, Russia will need to intensify counterterrorism measures.

    Moreover, the context of terrorism in Russia extends well beyond its Chechen semi-autonomous region. A number of radical Islamist groups are vying for influence and control all along Russia's southern periphery. They are also seeking to destabilize neighboring Central Asian states.

    For example, The New York Times carried a Reuters story on March 29 that disclosed:

    Azerbaijan said on Monday it had detained eight people including a Chechen man on suspicion of planning "terrorist acts" against a school and kindergarten in the capital of the oil-producing Caucasus state.

    A ministry statement...said the group had earlier concealed weapons and ammunition in the roof of a kindergarten and a school in the capital Baku and planned to attack both. The suspected ringleader is still at large, it added.

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    Re: Blasts in Moscow metro kill at least 37

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Alexa,

    As noted earlier, I favor a political framework that would provide a reasonable degree of autonomy for Russia's Chechen region to accommodate the core desires of that area's population, but also sustain Russia's vital interests in the Caucasus, including that of its own territorial integrity. However, the terrorist attacks reduce prospects for such an outcome. In response to the terrorist attacks, Russia will need to intensify counterterrorism measures.

    Moreover, the context of terrorism in Russia extends well beyond its Chechen semi-autonomous region. A number of radical Islamist groups are vying for influence and control all along Russia's southern periphery. They are also seeking to destabilize neighboring Central Asian states.

    For example, The New York Times carried a Reuters story on March 29 that disclosed:

    Azerbaijan said on Monday it had detained eight people including a Chechen man on suspicion of planning "terrorist acts" against a school and kindergarten in the capital of the oil-producing Caucasus state.

    A ministry statement...said the group had earlier concealed weapons and ammunition in the roof of a kindergarten and a school in the capital Baku and planned to attack both. The suspected ringleader is still at large, it added.
    Yes, it is going beyond the pail when they stoop as far as to harm children.

    I know here in the UK, the information we were getting was supporting the Chechen's until 9/11.

    and it does seem they were treated in an extremely unacceptable way by the Russians.

    However,
    The Soviet-Afghan war had attracted Islamic militants as well as resistance fighters to Chechnya and neighboring Dagestan, emboldened because the area was free of Russian military

    (side note It is a sad irony that some of those foreign militants would later form part of the terrorist groups alleged to have taken part in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the U.S., leading to the “war on terrorism”. Furthermore the United States' CIA had trained and aided some of those terrorists groups to help weaken the Soviet Union, and had “funneled more than $2 billion in guns and money to the mujaheddin during the 1980s.” Even Osama Bin Laden himself was trained by the CIA. For more on these aspects, see this site's section on the war on terrorism.)
    Crisis in Chechnya ? Global Issues

    those people got everywhere once the Afghan war ended.

    I can see it is more complicated, but the reality is they have always wanted independence -I am assuming that is why they took up with the Nazi's in WW2

    Then there is their oil and there is Russia's need for security.

    It looks like through desperation, they are moving further down the road to Al Qaeda type activities and from your quotes of the worse kind.

    My hunch is that Russia left them too long and treated too bad.
    Russian policy in Chechnya is breeding terrorists

    Two images from a forgotten war: an emaciated 13-year-old boy, unable to absorb food because of shrapnel in his stomach; and an old man who has lost his mind and is yelping like a dog, then is calmed by the sight of his own face reflected in the small mirror that his wife holds before him.

    The images are from 1999, when Russian troops went to pacify what President Vladimir Putin called "a bandit enclave". Five years later, the war in Chechnya sputters on with no end in sight. Chechen rebels, who are mainly Muslims, lay landmines and ambushes that kill dozens of Russian soldiers every month. The Russian security forces are reported to use death squads that "disappear" anyone they think might support the rebels.

    In Chechnya, human rights abuses and war crimes are not aberrations but tactics, an integral part of a war that, according to the American aid group Refugees International, has killed or driven into exile nearly half the Chechen population. Atrocities carried out by Russian troops and their proxies are well documented, but attract almost no censure from European or American governments because Putin's war in Chechnya is deemed to be part of the war on terror.
    New Statesman - NS Special Report - The conflict the west always ignores

    Can Russia do something in some way to make amends and get a political deal? I do not know. If not we may be hearing more and more stories of the grossest kind from a people who have simply given up.

    Machiavelli said, a wise leader gets the people to fear them, a foolish leader gets them to hate them. I fear Russia has been foolish.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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