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Israeli tanks 'enter Gaza' after deadly clashes

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jujuman13

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BBC News - Israeli tanks 'enter Gaza' after deadly clashes

Here we go again.
Quoted from article(A ceasefire between Israel and Islamist militant group Hamas, which governs Gaza, has largely held since the Israeli offensive.)

The problem with any supposed deal with Hamas is they refuse to honor their side of the bargain.
It will be ever thus.
 
jujuman13 said:
Link
BBC News - Israeli tanks 'enter Gaza' after deadly clashes

Here we go again.
Quoted from article(A ceasefire between Israel and Islamist militant group Hamas, which governs Gaza, has largely held since the Israeli offensive.)

The problem with any supposed deal with Hamas is they refuse to honor their side of the bargain.
It will be ever thus.
Click to expand...

Reports say at least two Palestinians have also been killed.

Israel says the fighting started when its troops crossed into Gaza after spotting militants planting explosives along the border.

Reports from inside Gaza say the militants then tried to capture an Israeli soldier.
Click to expand...

Depending on which side of the boarder the explosives were being planted will determine who is at fault here

On the Gaza side, then Israel is at fault, on the Israel side then Hamas
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Depending on which side of the boarder the explosives were being planted will determine who is at fault here

On the Gaza side, then Israel is at fault, on the Israel side then Hamas
Click to expand...

From the article in the OP:

However, hundreds of rockets have been fired into southern Israel by militants in Gaza.
Click to expand...

Missed this somehow? Clearly the fault is with Hamas, as usual.
 
ludahai said:
From the article in the OP:



Missed this somehow? Clearly the fault is with Hamas, as usual.
Click to expand...

Um when were those rockets fired?

Not since the Gaza war.

Only about 3 which were fired by AQ associated groups not Hamas
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Um when were those rockets fired?

Not since the Gaza war.

Only about 3 which were fired by AQ associated groups not Hamas
Click to expand...

are you meaning today?

A ceasefire between Israel and Islamist militant group Hamas, which governs Gaza, has largely held since the Israeli offensive.

However, hundreds of rockets have been fired into southern Israel by militants in Gaza.

Hamas's armed wing - the al-Qassam Brigades - said in a statement sent to the BBC that it had killed the two soldiers.

Speaking to Reuters news agency, Hamas spokesman Abu Obeida is quoted as saying: "This was our work, but was carried out for defence."
Click to expand...

same link.

I can't see there being any peace talks and I see Israel's building in East Jerusalem as being the red rag for the bull.

We will just see the Gaza people's confinement continuing with no doubt the odd burst of fire or full scale war to kill both Hamas and civilians while the extreme Israeli supporters say who cares if people die.

Israel has all the land for the grabbing. Why should she care.
 
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alexa said:
are you meaning today?



same link.

I can't see there being any peace talks and I see Israel's building in East Jerusalem as being the red rag for the bull.

We will just see the Gaza people's confinement continuing with no doubt the odd burst of fire or full scale war to kill both Hamas and civilians while the extreme Israeli supporters say who cares if people die.

Israel has all the land for the grabbing. Why should she care.
Click to expand...

Around 3 in the last couple of weeks. Specifically when one hit a greenhouse killing a thia migrant worker

Israel responded with F16 strikes on various targets
 
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Lord Tammerlain said:
Depending on which side of the boarder the explosives were being planted will determine who is at fault here

On the Gaza side, then Israel is at fault, on the Israel side then Hamas
Click to expand...

Why are you attempting to blame Israel for the actions of some assorted terrorist scumsuckers?
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Depending on which side of the boarder the explosives were being planted will determine who is at fault here

On the Gaza side, then Israel is at fault, on the Israel side then Hamas
Click to expand...
I don't see the logic here.

Hamas has attacked a squad that came to deal with a border breach, as a result two Israeli soldiers and two Palestinian militants were killed.

Adding that to the recent increase in rockets, to the soldier that has died a few days ago under similar circumstances, and to the person who was killed by a Palestinian rocket last week, and we have an escalation by Hamas.

Cast Lead 2 is no longer so far.
 
Bang-Boom-Pow.

Let the IDF blow Hamas to smithereens.
 
MetalGear said:
What are you trying to say?
Click to expand...

I am sayig that when your attitude is to blow Hamas to Smithereens and Apocalypse has already said that Cast Lead 2 is not far off, we know from previous experience that there will be far more civilians than Hamas killed and that a very great proportion of them will be children. I think it was one third last time.

I agree it is coming.

An alternative would be to genuinely look for peace.

But yes, blow the people of Gaza to smithereens. They have not anyway been allowed to rebuild their houses since last time.

Sure blow them to smitheens. The only result will be more Hamas recruits

but heck, then it can be done with a very easy conscience.
 
Gaza's terrorists may well have calculated that Israel would be compelled to exercise maximum restraint with all the international pressure being placed on Israel in recent weeks to make unilateral substantive concessions to the Palestinians, including to those in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip. Hence, they felt that there was an opportunity to carry out hostilities. In the wake of the terrorist activity that sparked the military operations, it will be important that Israel hit the terrorists hard to restore a sense of deterrence.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Depending on which side of the boarder the explosives were being planted will determine who is at fault here
Click to expand...

That's irrelevant. The terrorists weren't planting explosives to put on some kind of display. They were planting explosives to breach the border. That's an act of aggression.
 
alexa said:
An alternative would be to genuinely look for peace.
Click to expand...

The pursuit of peace is preferable. However, there are two major barriers right now:

1. The Palestinian leadership in Ramallah is maintaining a self-imposed boycott on negotiations. Without negotiations, peace cannot be pursued diplomatically.

2. Hamas rejects Israel's right to exist and it rejects negotiations. Furthermore, it defines such rejectionism as a requirement of religious faith. From Hamas' charter:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgment Day...

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.
 
alexa said:
I am sayig that when your attitude is to blow Hamas to Smithereens and Apocalypse has already said that Cast Lead 2 is not far off, we know from previous experience that there will be far more civilians than Hamas killed and that a very great proportion of them will be children. I think it was one third last time.
Click to expand...

Yes, the attitude is to blow HAMAS to smithereens, not civilians. You almost gave me the impression the killing of civilians is a purposeful act on Israel's behalf....i cannot tell you how many more the civilians compared to Hamas the IDF will kill, that all depends on the amount of civilians Hamas uses as a shield to protect there cowardice selves. :shrug:

Unfortunately the death of civilians is something that cannot be prevented for as long as Hamas continues to commit atrocious acts, and its something we shouldn't walk away from and allow them to continue committing war crimes.

I agree it is coming.

An alternative would be to genuinely look for peace.

But yes, blow the people of Gaza to smithereens. They have not anyway been allowed to rebuild their houses since last time.

Sure blow them to smitheens. The only result will be more Hamas recruits

but heck, then it can be done with a very easy conscience.
Click to expand...

Sweetheart, peace is all well and good, but its not a political reality.
Now you can do a Dalai Lama on our arses and dig yourself a grave to bury your conflicts in there in the name of peace, and to only end up getting pushed in by your enemy too.
Or you face up to the Hamas bullies and give them a beating they wont forget.

There is no peace with Hamas in the equation, thats all there is to it.
 
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If recruitment of Hamas members increases in proportion to the ass whooping they receive, then i guess a couple of years down the line there will be no more people left in Gaza....problem solved. :D
 
Apocalypse said:
I don't see the logic here.

Hamas has attacked a squad that came to deal with a border breach, as a result two Israeli soldiers and two Palestinian militants were killed.

Adding that to the recent increase in rockets, to the soldier that has died a few days ago under similar circumstances, and to the person who was killed by a Palestinian rocket last week, and we have an escalation by Hamas.

Cast Lead 2 is no longer so far.
Click to expand...

What is hard to understand

If the explosives were being placed on the Palestinain/Gaza side of the boarder then no breach occurred by the Palestinians and crossing the boarder by the Israeli's was wrong. Which means Hamas fighting against them was more then justified

If the explosives were being placed on the Israeli side then the crossing of the boarder by the Israeli forces to catch/kill the people placing the explosives was justified
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
What is hard to understand

If the explosives were being placed on the Palestinain/Gaza side of the boarder then no breach occurred by the Palestinians and crossing the boarder by the Israeli's was wrong. Which means Hamas fighting against them was more then justified

If the explosives were being placed on the Israeli side then the crossing of the boarder by the Israeli forces to catch/kill the people placing the explosives was justified
Click to expand...

Wait, Hamas tried to breach the boarder. Even if the bombs where placed on there side of the territory, that is most definitely provocation. What where they doing trying to blow the boarder blockade up anyway? Breach the boarder? I think there intent was clear and obvious, it most definetly constitutes an agressive act.
 
MetalGear said:
Wait, Hamas tried to breach the boarder. Even if the bombs where placed on there side of the territory, that is most definitely provocation. What where they doing trying to blow the boarder blockade up anyway? Breach the boarder? I think there intent was clear and obvious, it most definetly constitutes an agressive act.
Click to expand...

Placing explosives or mines on your side of the boarder is perfectly fine

Crossing the boarder is not

And the article does not indicate which side of the boarder the explosives were being placed.

Now as for an agressive act. Blockades are considered an act of war, so each day Israel enforce it it is creating an agressive act
 
donsutherland1 said:
The pursuit of peace is preferable. However, there are two major barriers right now:

1. The Palestinian leadership in Ramallah is maintaining a self-imposed boycott on negotiations. Without negotiations, peace cannot be pursued diplomatically.
Click to expand...

I agree with you there. I was unaware that Israel was repared to have any kind of negotiations with Hamas.

donsutherland1 said:
2. Hamas rejects Israel's right to exist and it rejects negotiations. Furthermore, it defines such rejectionism as a requirement of religious faith. From Hamas' charter:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgment Day...

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.
Click to expand...

I am aware that that is in it's charter though I heard they intended to drop it when they were first elected.

As Gerald Hoffman said, something like Hamas may be crap but they are the only people in town.

Hamas is representative of the people of Gaza and although they certainly do seem to be getting more and more on side the harder things become for them, I do not see this as anthing which cannot be resolved providing talks begin.

I am amazed at how much this world has forgoten psychology - ok to be fair, Israel hears they want no Israel and thinks Holocaust, but I was watching a film on inside Gaza the other day and the kids are just like any other kids. They don't understand why you hate them so much and some of them do want to get revenge for the death of their loved ones when they grow up. I don't think any of them spoke any Islamist stuff. They just wondered why you hated the so much

I just see it as something which needs to stop. It is without question to the benefit of the people of Gaza that it stops as their life is hell. Because of this I believe that a peace deal can be done.

The Gazian people would choose a just peace over Hamas but joining Hamas over what is hapening now, in general.

Israel's main stated stumbling block appears to be fear. Nothing can get changed.
 
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