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Catholic Church accuses abuse victims of smear campaign

Look at this "and requiring that Father Murphy accept full responsibility for the gravity of his acts".

The fact that he was fully responsibie for his actions is an absolute. His taking of that resposibility is not a factor. This guys was a monster and like all monsters it need to be destroyed.
 
When all is said and done the extremely simple fact remains.

Is this Pope responsible for what his minions do or does he (as seems to be the case) absolve himself from any responsibility.

It seems to me that it is all about cover up and defer any attention from this Pope.
Having said that, there also seems to be little to no recriminations by the Church itself against the Pedophiles who created the mess in the first place.

It is as if they imagine that by throwing money at the victims that the crime will be forgotten.
 
When all is said and done the extremely simple fact remains.

Is this Pope responsible for what his minions do or does he (as seems to be the case) absolve himself from any responsibility.

It seems to me that it is all about cover up and defer any attention from this Pope.
Having said that, there also seems to be little to no recriminations by the Church itself against the Pedophiles who created the mess in the first place.

It is as if they imagine that by throwing money at the victims that the crime will be forgotten.

I share a lot of the same thinking that you have stated. This is about cover up. I am am not saying that any Pope knew of every case or that any Pope was complicent with any case. Yet it is logical that any and every Pope did know that there was a problem in the Church with pervert priests. I also beleive that the entire hierarchy knew this and the lower the mangement of the Church was in the hierarchy the more likely that not only knew about a case bbut that very likley were complicent with a cover up or they ignored a problem.
 
Look at this "and requiring that Father Murphy accept full responsibility for the gravity of his acts".

The fact that he was fully responsibie for his actions is an absolute. His taking of that resposibility is not a factor. This guys was a monster and like all monsters it need to be destroyed.

That is for God to decide, not you or I.
 
When all is said and done the extremely simple fact remains.

Is this Pope responsible for what his minions do or does he (as seems to be the case) absolve himself from any responsibility.

It seems to me that it is all about cover up and defer any attention from this Pope.
Having said that, there also seems to be little to no recriminations by the Church itself against the Pedophiles who created the mess in the first place.

It is as if they imagine that by throwing money at the victims that the crime will be forgotten.

These all took place before the reforms the Church introduced a few years ago. Were there problems? Yes. However, don't forget that the Church is ALSO in the business of forgiveness. Was the Fr. Murphy situation handled slowly? Apparently yes. However, it seems like it was handled by LOCAL authorities before it was ever known by the Vatican. National churches and individual dioceses and archdioceses are run relatively autonomously, so it is NOT a stretch of the imagination to think the Vatican did NOT know about Fr. Murphy until twenty years after the fact. The fact that reports indicate that there were no reports of problems from Fr. Murphy after the local Church authorities handled it shows that they perhaps DID the right thing within the confines of Canon Law.

I am not defending his actions. However, I am also now going to do into a knee-jerk condemnation of the Church without actually trying to understand what is going on, unlike some people.
 
Profile: The Vatican's watchdog
Link
BBC News - Profile: The Vatican's watchdog

Quote from article(As the Vatican watchdog responsible for tackling sexual abuse by Roman Catholic clerics, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) faces serious questions about its work, particularly during the years when it was headed by the current Pope.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, as he was known before being elected Pope Benedict XVI, came to the office in 1981 and led it for nearly a quarter of a century.)

He led this office for 25 years and apparently was unable to find priests who molested young children in all that time.

Quote from article(In the Wisconsin case, the priest accused of abusing up to 200 pupils at a school for deaf children wrote directly to Cardinal Ratzinger, saying he had repented and asking to be left alone. No response has been found but Church proceedings against Fr Lawrence Murphy were halted. )

No response found, BUT Church proceedings against this pedophile were halted.
And why not? after all he had (so he said) repented. (shaking my head in disbelief).
I believe the biggest problem is this Church believing it and it's members are above the law of the land.

One might to some extent accept that this Pope received more than a grounding in immoral behaviour as a child in the Hitler Youth, but as he in his own words voluntarily left that particular organization, one could have supposed that he had a changed moral outlook, apparently not.

Quote(In a recent article in the US National Catholic Reporter , Church affairs analyst John Allen argues that the CDF underwent a revolution in 2001 when Cardinal Ratzinger subjected all sexual abuse allegations against priests to the authority of his office. )
 
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Quote from article(In the Wisconsin case, the priest accused of abusing up to 200 pupils at a school for deaf children wrote directly to Cardinal Ratzinger, saying he had repented and asking to be left alone. No response has been found but Church proceedings against Fr Lawrence Murphy were halted. )

No response found, BUT Church proceedings against this pedophile were halted.
And why not? after all he had (so he said) repented. (shaking my head in disbelief).

THey were halted due to his advanced age AND the fact that the situation was already being taken care of by the proper Church authorities in the United States. The fact that reports show that from that time to the time the Vatican addressed it, there had been no further cases. No reason for a Canon Law case against him at that point -- if it were to be done, it should have been done earlier. Once again, people who don't know how the Church operates are condemning the Church.
 
And your opinion of who needs to go to hell is completely irrelevant. I love how non-Catholics are in such a rush to send people to hell. God is Love, remember?

Yes he is but if you will remember the gospel account of Jesus placing a child on his knee and saying that if anyone harmed a child that it would better for that person to have a mill stone tied to their neck and cast into the sea. This is just disgusting. The Church is accusing the victims while protecting the criminals.

Moe
 
THey were halted due to his advanced age AND the fact that the situation was already being taken care of by the proper Church authorities in the United States. The fact that reports show that from that time to the time the Vatican addressed it, there had been no further cases. No reason for a Canon Law case against him at that point -- if it were to be done, it should have been done earlier. Once again, people who don't know how the Church operates are condemning the Church.

If soldiers break the law, do you not condemn the chain of command in the military? If police officers overstep their authority, do you not take issue with the police department? If members of the government conspire to take advantage of the people or are involved in scandal, do you not take issue with the government?

The buck stops at the Vatican, and every person who committed these atrocious acts did so while bearing the emblems of the Church. There is plenty of evidence that there was willful concealment by the Church... whether you want to call it the American branch, or the Irish branch, or whatever... it's all the Church. These representatives of the Church were trusted by their communities. Not only was that trust violated, but it took a political and media firestorm to finally have any shred of reconciliation from Church officials.

I understand your need to apologize for your faith, but it's not your faith that is on trial here; it is the bureaucracy of your Church that is. The Vatican's credibility is ruined in the eyes of many, and I don't feel sorry for it. The truth needs to win out no matter how painful it is, and I think that is something that God would also want.
 
I am a little tired of the media-orchestrated smear campaign against the Church. Yes, there are tragedies and I pray for the victims as well as for the priests who committed them. However, the overwhelming majority of those in the church, from high clergy officials to laypeople are good, honest, hardworking, faithful people who try to live out the values of our faith on a daily basis as best we know how. None of this invaldiates the basic truths taught by the Church for nearly two thousand years. Are there some bad apples? Of course. It is, after all, the world's largest organization. However, the wealth of good that the Church has done mush be considered.

I see this problem in much the same way I see the problem of violent extremism within Islam. You may be a little tired of the way your religion is portrayed in the media, as I'm sure the vast majority of good, honest, hardworking, faithful Muslims are tired of the way the bad apples in their midst are giving them all a bad name. I'm going to ask you the question that they are constantly being asked: What are you and your religious leaders really doing to eradicate this problem? And if you are doing something, is it enough or should you be doing something more?

And I'm sorry, but the wealth of good the Church has done is no excuse, nor should it be given any consideration whatsoever when dealing with those who abuse the innocent.
 
Yes he is but if you will remember the gospel account of Jesus placing a child on his knee and saying that if anyone harmed a child that it would better for that person to have a mill stone tied to their neck and cast into the sea. This is just disgusting. The Church is accusing the victims while protecting the criminals.

Moe

I am not arguing that this priest did something acceptable. It was disgusting. I am only saying two things.

1. It is up to God, not to us to determine his ultimate fate.
2. The Vatican did nothing wrong in handling his case. They didn't find out until decades later when the local authorities had already handled it within Canon Law.
 
We don't know what he did know and what he didn't. However, it is clear that there are people out there with an agenda against the Church are in a rush to judgement. Does your source explain WHY Fr. Murthy wasn't defrocked? I didn't think so...

He wasn't defrocked because he wrote directly to Ratzinger, explaining that he was ill and old, and asking to be allowed to continue to serve out his days as a priest.

Poor old Father Murphy....

It doesn't take much sense to tell you that whether child sexual abuse was an issue in the public eye, or not, that ANYONE with half a brain in their head knows it's wrong. And that people who do such things SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED AROUND CHILDREN.

Anymore excuses?
 
If soldiers break the law, do you not condemn the chain of command in the military? If police officers overstep their authority, do you not take issue with the police department? If members of the government conspire to take advantage of the people or are involved in scandal, do you not take issue with the government?

Not necessarily. It depends upon the circumstances. If it is a rogue cop, I don't blame the entire police department for his/her actions.

The buck stops at the Vatican, and every person who committed these atrocious acts did so while bearing the emblems of the Church. There is plenty of evidence that there was willful concealment by the Church... whether you want to call it the American branch, or the Irish branch, or whatever... it's all the Church. These representatives of the Church were trusted by their communities. Not only was that trust violated, but it took a political and media firestorm to finally have any shred of reconciliation from Church officials.

But each diocese/archdiocese and national church operates semi-autonomously. I have seen nothing to suggest that the Vatican even knew about this particular case until WELL AFTER local ecclesiastical authorities dealt with it within the confines of Canon Law.

I understand your need to apologize for your faith, but it's not your faith that is on trial here; it is the bureaucracy of your Church that is. The Vatican's credibility is ruined in the eyes of many, and I don't feel sorry for it. The truth needs to win out no matter how painful it is, and I think that is something that God would also want.

I am not "apologizing" for my faith. There is nothing to apologize for. I am merely attempting to set the record straight as best I understand it.
 
I see this problem in much the same way I see the problem of violent extremism within Islam. You may be a little tired of the way your religion is portrayed in the media, as I'm sure the vast majority of good, honest, hardworking, faithful Muslims are tired of the way the bad apples in their midst are giving them all a bad name. I'm going to ask you the question that they are constantly being asked: What are you and your religious leaders really doing to eradicate this problem? And if you are doing something, is it enough or should you be doing something more?

And I'm sorry, but the wealth of good the Church has done is no excuse, nor should it be given any consideration whatsoever when dealing with those who abuse the innocent.

Actually, the Catholic Church HAS made reforms. All of these abuse allegations are PRE-reforms.
 
He wasn't defrocked because he wrote directly to Ratzinger, explaining that he was ill and old, and asking to be allowed to continue to serve out his days as a priest.

Poor old Father Murphy....

It doesn't take much sense to tell you that whether child sexual abuse was an issue in the public eye, or not, that ANYONE with half a brain in their head knows it's wrong. And that people who do such things SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED AROUND CHILDREN.

Anymore excuses?

After twenty years of ZERO INCIDENTS!!! NONE!!! BEcause the local ecclesiastical authorities had ALREADY DEALT WITH THE PROBLEM!!!
 
Actually, the Catholic Church HAS made reforms. All of these abuse allegations are PRE-reforms.

What the church hasn't reformed is openly addressing the allegations instead of attacking the victims. They are currently in full-on CYA mode, and spinning it as if the victims are at fault here for making them look bad.

Cheese and rice. At least TRY to be objective.

What they are currently doing is not only causing further harm to the victims, but is dishonest and makes them look even guiltier.
 
I am not arguing that this priest did something acceptable. It was disgusting. I am only saying two things.

1. It is up to God, not to us to determine his ultimate fate.
2. The Vatican did nothing wrong in handling his case. They didn't find out until decades later when the local authorities had already handled it within Canon Law.

Point 1 of course I accept.

Point 2 from what I read his ministry was restricted.

He should have been defrocked. Not put out of the church, but no longer a preist of the church. just an average joe in pew again.

His crimes should have been reported to the local law authorities and handled via same legal process that all criminals go through.

Moe
 
What the church hasn't reformed is openly addressing the allegations instead of attacking the victims. They are currently in full-on CYA mode, and spinning it as if the victims are at fault here for making them look bad.

Cheese and rice. At least TRY to be objective.

What they are currently doing is not only causing further harm to the victims, but is dishonest and makes them look even guiltier.

That is truth. I now can compare in my head the catholic church a belief that ask that you confess your sins pay a penance and overcome them to Toyota a business.
 
If you don't like what is happening within the Roman Catholic Church, then don't be a part of it. A person doesn't need to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church in order to be a Christian. A person doesn't need to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church in order to go to Heaven.
 
Not necessarily. It depends upon the circumstances. If it is a rogue cop, I don't blame the entire police department for his/her actions.

This wasn't one rogue Priest. It was thousands. Clearly there was a systemic problem.

But each diocese/archdiocese and national church operates semi-autonomously. I have seen nothing to suggest that the Vatican even knew about this particular case until WELL AFTER local ecclesiastical authorities dealt with it within the confines of Canon Law.

The chain of command, and therefore responsibility, goes all the way back to the Vatican. Who gives the go ahead for the appointment of Bishops and Cardinals? This all has to do with the Church, no matter how much you may wish things were different.

I am not "apologizing" for my faith. There is nothing to apologize for. I am merely attempting to set the record straight as best I understand it.

I don't agree. It sounds like you are apologizing and rationalizing. How exactly do hundreds if not thousands of pedophiles make their way into the ranks of the Church, commit thousands of acts of molestation all around the world and in different regions of authority, only to have Catholics such as yourself turn around and claim that it was a problem of hierarchical communication? Please. I know you are smarter than that.

There was plenty of willful concealment on all levels. It was an ugly truth that people wanted to avoid. I can understand that. Why would anyone want such filth being spoken of the institution of their faith? But you can't hide from the truth. It comes out eventually.

The Vatican may have reforms in place now, but those reforms only came as a form of public relations damage control. I would hardly call it pro-active.
 
THey were halted due to his advanced age AND the fact that the situation was already being taken care of by the proper Church authorities in the United States. The fact that reports show that from that time to the time the Vatican addressed it, there had been no further cases. No reason for a Canon Law case against him at that point -- if it were to be done, it should have been done earlier. Once again, people who don't know how the Church operates are condemning the Church.

You fail to realize that Criminal Law is above Church Law.

Quite honestly the way this particular Church operates is frankly disgusting.

I do not condemn the Church, I do condemn those who seek to operate this particular Church for their own twisted salacious pleasures and to hell with anyone else.

What this particular Church's leaders have done is to perpetuate child abuse in the name of Catholic religion.

I find the present Holy Roman Catholic Church leaders to be as odious as Nazi's.
 
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If soldiers break the law, do you not condemn the chain of command in the military? If police officers overstep their authority, do you not take issue with the police department? If members of the government conspire to take advantage of the people or are involved in scandal, do you not take issue with the government?

The buck stops at the Vatican, and every person who committed these atrocious acts did so while bearing the emblems of the Church. There is plenty of evidence that there was willful concealment by the Church... whether you want to call it the American branch, or the Irish branch, or whatever... it's all the Church. These representatives of the Church were trusted by their communities. Not only was that trust violated, but it took a political and media firestorm to finally have any shred of reconciliation from Church officials.

I understand your need to apologize for your faith, but it's not your faith that is on trial here; it is the bureaucracy of your Church that is. The Vatican's credibility is ruined in the eyes of many, and I don't feel sorry for it. The truth needs to win out no matter how painful it is, and I think that is something that God would also want.

Actually "If soldiers break the law," you " condemn the chain of command in the military" if the chains of command knew about the soldiers breaaking the law and did nothing about it or if the upper links of that chain gave an order to break the law.

In this case there appears to be a failure of some part of the Church's chain of Command to take appropriate action. Whether the CIC of the Church is directly complicent in the failure to arrest the behavior of the pervert priests remains to be seen.
 
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I understand your need to apologize for your faith, but it's not your faith that is on trial here; it is the bureaucracy of your Church that is. The Vatican's credibility is ruined in the eyes of many, and I don't feel sorry for it. The truth needs to win out no matter how painful it is, and I think that is something that God would also want. .

Orion, That paragraph of yours I quoted above has got to be one of the best I have seen written on this subgect in any thread. You have cut through the emotional responses that some of us have made and did a very credible job responding to this issue. Thanks.,,,,,
 
If you don't like what is happening within the Roman Catholic Church, then don't be a part of it. A person doesn't need to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church in order to be a Christian. A person doesn't need to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church in order to go to Heaven.

You are joking right? You mean there will be others there in heavan besides us Catholics ? We will have to share Heavan with Potestants, Jews, Orthodox Christians also ? Please tell me that Muslims will not be allowed into Heavan because if they are that will really ruin my day,......;)
 
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