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Thread: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

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    Re: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You have decided that I am a religious, Evangelical extremist based on simply related the facts of history. What do you mean you "have not decided (you are) going to believe anything?"
    Inaccurate. I didn't decide but I did believe it was a possibility. I did believe you were a literalist. It would appear in that I was mistaken. It would appear it is more the crusades that motivates you. As I said yesterday I do not as yet know much about extreme US religion.

    I believe that your opinion of Muslims is based on your Religious focus. This I see by your need to harp on about the crusades as an excuse for not engaging in peace talks with the Palestinians and further your belief that Israel is Christian land
    Last edited by alexa; 03-30-10 at 08:53 AM.
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    Re: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    This is simply NOT true. Militant Islam has been around for a VERY long time. Heck, in Aceh (present-day Indonesia), it has been around since about the year 1300 or so.
    You know perfectly well I said in my lifetime. Arguably you could say it began in the 1920, was taken up more in the 1960's for much the same concerns as the neo cons had, became radicalised and really took off after your country promoted it during the Afghan war.

    But this is not what this is about.

    Peace in the middle East is what it is about. Your believe that the crusades mean that Muslims should not have peace shows a worrying religious concern.


    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post

    Actually, I did not bring up the Crusades. Someone else did in response to my point that the Islamic world has been engaged in jihad against the Christian world for more than thirteen centuries. Sad that you blind yourself to this history.
    You have already said that. Nonetheless it fitted in with your argument why there should not be peace in the middle east so whether you brought it up or not, it is your argument.
    Last edited by alexa; 03-30-10 at 08:58 AM.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    And what was the religious character of the region, pre-Christianity? Jewish and neo-platonic paganism. Forced conversion? Do I need to mention Theodosius' edict De Fide Catolica? Colonization? Should I remind you of the colonization of Roman Britain and Ireland? The colonizations of the Anglo-Saxons and the Germanic Franks?

    Like I said, others call it liberation. The persecution of other religions was much worse under Christianity than it was under Islam.

    Stating historical facts does not negate your assertion that these are 'Christian' lands.
    Liberation? Catholic Spain invaded by Muslims was liberation? The invasion of France? The invasion of Southeastern Europe? Aksum? North Africa? You are doing NOTHING to disprove the point that Islam has been on a war of aggression against Christianity since the 7th century.
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    Re: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Inaccurate. I didn't decide but I did believe it was a possibility. I did believe you were a literalist. It would appear in that I was mistaken. It would appear it is more the crusades that motivates you. As I said yesterday I do not as yet know much about extreme US religion.

    I believe that your opinion of Muslims is based on your Religious focus. This I see by your need to harp on about the crusades as an excuse for not engaging in peace talks with the Palestinians and further your belief that Israel is Christian land
    Actually, once again I am not the one who brought up the Crusades. I am also merely pointing out that Islam has been on the offensive against Christianity for more than 1300 years. Again, nothing you and others have said disproves any of this.

    As for my opinion of Muslims, they are as diverse a population as any other. Some are great people and open minded. Others are closed minded and violent. I have many friends of the former variety. I have little patience for the later.
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    Re: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Liberation? Catholic Spain invaded by Muslims was liberation? The invasion of France? The invasion of Southeastern Europe? Aksum? North Africa? You are doing NOTHING to disprove the point that Islam has been on a war of aggression against Christianity since the 7th century.
    Sure Muslims attempted to spread Islam through Europe by force but I see no reason why Christians need to be so whiny about it.
    Christianity did not spread through "love" or fly around the world on its own. It was imported by people with the aim to convert.

    But that was centuries ago. Islam has been spread, E Africa (and many other parts of Africa) is Muslim. ME is Muslim. Large parts of Asia is Muslim. Islam is the second largest religion and growing even now.
    What does Christians have that Muslims would need? Nothing.

    Both Christianity and Islam spread through war and invasions. The only religion out of the three that has a leg to stand on is Judaism and that is only because they do not seek to convert otherwise I doubt its history would have been different.

    As for continued aggression. Muslims have nothing to fear from Christians. Islam has nothing to fear from Christianity.
    Christianity is facing its own crisis from lack of believers and the hold of Atheism and secularism in the Western world. Islam has none of these issues nor do we need to go on any form of missionary work like Christians to actively recruit members into our religion.
    Last edited by Laila; 03-30-10 at 09:36 AM.


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    Re: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Sure Muslims attempted to spread Islam through Europe by force but I see no reason why Christians need to be so whiny about it.
    Christianity did not spread through "love" or fly around the world on its own. It was imported by people with the aim to convert.
    Difference is that the initial spread of Christianity in the Middle East, North Africa and Mediterranean Europe was almost entirely peaceful in empires (Roman and Parthia) that were hostile to the faith. The violence was conducted against those who converted. By the 5th century, the western half of the Middle East, North Africa, and Aksum were solidly Christian. Yes, in the sixth century, the Roman empire was less than tolerant toward non-Christians, it doesn't change the fact that the region was predominantly Christian and it was spread peacefully.

    This is in stark contrast with the initial spread of Islam. Even the Arabian peninsula was converted to Islam largely through violence. Then, the Arabs came out of the desert and destroyed the Sassanid Empire (largely wiping out the Zorastorian religion along with it), brought the Roman Empire to its knees (including beseiging Constantinople and taking large parts of the Empire -- including much of its Levant holdings and North Africa -- converting it to Islam), conquered Spain, invaded France, set up an emirate on Sicily, attacked Aksum and took its most important commercial regions (ironic because it was Aksum that shelted Muhammad's wife). Later, Muslims took the heart of Orthodox Christianity (finally) and took nearly all of southeastern Europe... this was ALL by violence. Yes, later spread (West Africa and Southeast Asia) was peaceful, but to say that the spread of Christianity was as violent as the spread of Islam is simply not accurate.

    But that was centuries ago. Islam has been spread, E Africa (and many other parts of Africa) is Muslim. ME is Muslim. Large parts of Asia is Muslim. Islam is the second largest religion and growing even now.
    What does Christians have that Muslims would need? Nothing.
    If we have nothing you need, why do Muslims keep attacking Christian nations?

    Both Christianity and Islam spread through war and invasions. The only religion out of the three that has a leg to stand on is Judaism and that is only because they do not seek to convert otherwise I doubt its history would have been different.
    See above. The initial spread of Christianity was largely peaceful. The initial spread of Islam was VERY bloody.

    As for continued aggression. Muslims have nothing to fear from Christians. Islam has nothing to fear from Christianity.
    Because Christians accept the right of Muslims to choose their own believe. We have more to fear from you because many Muslims do NOT extend the same tolerance to Christians. Too bad people like Suleiman (although he was a conquerer, he WAS tolerant), Shah Abbas and Akbar aren't the voice of Islam like they once were.

    Christianity is facing its own crisis from lack of believers and the hold of Atheism and secularism in the Western world. Islam has none of these issues nor do we need to go on any form of missionary work like Christians to actively recruit members into our religion.
    No Islamic missionaries? Really? Sure about that?
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    Re: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Difference is that the initial spread of Christianity in the Middle East, North Africa and Mediterranean Europe was almost entirely peaceful in empires (Roman and Parthia) that were hostile to the faith. The violence was conducted against those who converted. By the 5th century, the western half of the Middle East, North Africa, and Aksum were solidly Christian. Yes, in the sixth century, the Roman empire was less than tolerant toward non-Christians, it doesn't change the fact that the region was predominantly Christian and it was spread peacefully.

    This is in stark contrast with the initial spread of Islam. Even the Arabian peninsula was converted to Islam largely through violence. Then, the Arabs came out of the desert and destroyed the Sassanid Empire (largely wiping out the Zorastorian religion along with it), brought the Roman Empire to its knees (including beseiging Constantinople and taking large parts of the Empire -- including much of its Levant holdings and North Africa -- converting it to Islam), conquered Spain, invaded France, set up an emirate on Sicily, attacked Aksum and took its most important commercial regions (ironic because it was Aksum that shelted Muhammad's wife). Later, Muslims took the heart of Orthodox Christianity (finally) and took nearly all of southeastern Europe... this was ALL by violence. Yes, later spread (West Africa and Southeast Asia) was peaceful, but to say that the spread of Christianity was as violent as the spread of Islam is simply not accurate.
    Christianity is as suspectible to violence as Islam is. Christianity spread through conversion and conquering of countries. The same with Islam.
    The difference is that I acknowledge my religion spread through invasions, you seem to be deluding yourself and rewriting history.
    I see nothing bad about it either considering the era all this occurred in where conquering's was common as was Empires and wars.


    If we have nothing you need, why do Muslims keep attacking Christian nations?
    If we are discussing terrorism, I would suggest we not even go there.
    Western Christian countries have been attacking and after Muslim countries for decades now.
    ME is their own little playground.
    I do not see Arab soldiers in Europe yet I do see American and British soldiers on Muslim soil.

    Hell it did not take Christians long to start pouring into Iraq to convert Muslims into "salvation".

    See above. The initial spread of Christianity was largely peaceful. The initial spread of Islam was VERY bloody.
    Yet Christianity still has an equally bloody history.

    We have more to fear from you because many Muslims do NOT extend the same tolerance to Christians. Too bad people like Suleiman (although he was a conquerer, he WAS tolerant), Shah Abbas and Akbar aren't the voice of Islam like they once were.
    Christians in Iraq had more freedom under a dictator than they now do after Christian nations came in to liberate them.
    Orthodox communities are fine in many Muslim countries, they are tolerated.
    What is not tolerated is any Christian attempting to convert which is another issue.

    No Islamic missionaries? Really? Sure about that?
    Absolutely.
    Muslims very very rarely go out into missionary work.
    For Christians, attempting to convert others and spread the Bible seems to come hand in hand with the religion.
    Last edited by Laila; 03-30-10 at 10:22 AM.


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    Re: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Christianity is as suspectible to violence as Islam is. Christianity spread through conversion and conquering of countries. The same with Islam.
    The difference is that I acknowledge my religion spread through invasions, you seem to be deluding yourself and rewriting history.
    I see nothing bad about it either considering the era all this occurred in where conquering's was common as was Empires and wars.
    What history have I re-written. I did not say that there was no spread of Christianity without violence, I was merely commenting on the initial spread of the faiths. Still, there was FAR MORE violence in the spread of Islam than of Christianity on the whole.

    If we are discussing terrorism, I would suggest we not even go there.
    Western Christian countries have been attacking and after Muslim countries for decades now.
    ME is their own little playground.
    I do not see Arab soldiers in Europe yet I do see American and British soldiers on Muslim soil.
    Because Christians kicked them out... TWICE!!!

    Hell it did not take Christians long to start pouring into Iraq to convert Muslims into "salvation".
    Islamic mosques in Rome. How about Christian churches in Mecca?

    What is not tolerated is any Christian attempting to convert which is another issue.
    So, it is ok for people to convert TO Islam, but not FROM Islam?


    Absolutely.
    Muslims very very rarely go out into missionary work.
    For Christians, attempting to convert others and spread the Bible seems to come hand in hand with the religion.
    Due to the Great Commission. For a non-missionary religion, there seems to be a lot of missionizing going on. Note, I don't have a problem with it, but that it needs to work both ways. People can convert to Islam in Italy, but in Saudi Arabia, Malaysia and other Islamic countries, converting from Islam to Christianity is outlawed and can even result in a death sentence.
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    Re: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Liberation? Catholic Spain invaded by Muslims was liberation? The invasion of France? The invasion of Southeastern Europe? Aksum? North Africa? You are doing NOTHING to disprove the point that Islam has been on a war of aggression against Christianity since the 7th century.
    That's OK, Christians were doing it 600 years before that.

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    Re: Binyamin Netanyahu humiliated after Barack Obama 'dumped him for dinner'

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    That's OK, Christians were doing it 600 years before that.
    Aggression against whom? As I have already noted, most of the initial expansion of Christianity was PEACEFUL. In fact, it was done in the face of great PERSECUTION from the Roman and Parthian empires.
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