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House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

It was a parody post based on one made by Chappy that was almost word for word the same (only aimed at conservatives) in another thread where they lambasted someone for making excuses for the actions people took and then came in here and started making an excuse that it was really probably a confused republican.

I'm sorry, you've completely confused me now.

Are you suggesting that Councilman's proposal that this was a disgruntled Obama minion attempting to create a furor and blame it on tea partiers is somehow wrong?

:mrgreen:
 
It was a parody post based on one made by Chappy that was almost word for word the same (only aimed at conservatives) in another thread where they lambasted someone for making excuses for the actions people took and then came in here and started making an excuse that it was really probably a confused republican.

I actually liked the parody. One, it included my blanket condemnation of political violence whoever commits it.

But, two, it reminded people that we should be on the lookout for anybody who looks the other way, when people with similar views use inappropriate means to express themselves. I believe when we look the other way, it's a tacit endorsement of that action.

I may be guilty of looking past this specific incident; frankly, I took Cantor's claim that someone had attacked his unmarked offices as lacking credibility. I think the Richmod Police statement bears that out, but, I should have added that political violence is never acceptable. Ever. And, if this had been someone firing a shot and Rep. Cantor's office, then it was wrong and profoundly harmful to our nation.

The series of smashed windows of Democratic offices across as wide an area as Arizona, Kansas and New York state in a relatively brief time frame matched the call by Mike Vanderboegh for just such violent action. He's an obscure radical, a militia leader from the 90s, who took credit for the attacks.

Here's some of his recent postings and quotes.

“And if we do a proper job, if we break the windows of hundreds, thousands, of Democrat Party headquarters across this country, we might just wake up enough of them to make defending ourselves at the muzzle of a rifle unnecessary.” — Mike Vanderboegh¹

“if you wish to send a message that Pelosi and her party cannot fail to hear, break their windows.” — Mike Vanderboegh²

“What I was trying to get across was that people do not understand how on the edge of civil conflict this country is.” — Mike Vanderboegh³

Now, I think if Mike Vanderboegh in Pinson, Alabama claims credit for these attacks across the country; I consider that a campaign of terror directed not just at the Democratic Party, but the American people and their way of life. Maybe it's all in his head, or, maybe misguided people are responding to his calls for violence. I don't know, but, I think it deserves to be condemned by everyone because we all have a stake in our non-violent political process.

For me what was even more disturbing than the Mr. Vanderboegh's rantings, was the muted response about the political violence, organized or not, from Republican congressional leadership for days afterward; at last we have seen Leader Boehner step up and declare:

“Violence and threats are unacceptable. That is not the American way.” — House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio)¹

It's about time!

Now, that the last vote is complete and the health care reform program is the law of the land, we should look forward to everyone calming down and moving on. Hopefully, the worse is over.
 
I now hear that the Rhichmond police believe that the trojectile that hit The Cantor's office was most likely fired in the air and hit his place bt accident.
Just by listening to the hate mouthed Tea Partiers and the so called right to lifers and the bithers I did believe that anyone ould have fired at CANTOR since he was the the Tea Partiers side. he also puked out a staement blaming the Democrats for the aattacks that the Democrats were the victims of. That is 1884 tal Herr CANTOR !!!!

The Republicans were giddy as pigs in crap when they saaw the Tae Partiers attacking Prez BO and the Democrats and even urged them on with very strong anti Obama and anti Demoractic statements. The Republicans incited the Tea Partiers and then they blamed the Democrats when it was the Democrats who were getting attacked.

Come off it Cantor your words caused the vilolence and now you whine !!!
 
You say tomato........



Rahm Emmanuel cornering politicians, Chicago style politics, etc.



If they are found to be beyond acceptable ethics, then of course there is a chance.




I'm not whining, I hate the bill, but hey, I can sell insurance, and the bill will increase premiums. Even though Americana ****ed ourselves royally by voting in this particular adm. and congress into power and they in turn ****ed the entire American political spectrum I can make more money. I'm just asking people to be honest about what happened here. Best yet, I take no blame in any of it, the people I voted for tried to do things the right way.




Be honest Redress, the whole process is rife with stories of wide scale abuses.



Correct, if the thing is not repealed the court will be the judge eventually. As to unsupported allegations.....there is plenty of evidence that something fishy took place, but hey, the congress or a special prosecutor would have to look at the case, and it is at the discretion of a majority congress that just voted for the bill......so......I'm not expecting anything to come out in particular.

So you have absolutely nothing concrete except you want to believe the democrats are bad people and boo hoo we lost.
 
Exactly how in your mind do you compute no impact from a bill that changes 1/6th of the economy and is in the minority for support not influence an election in any state right now?

Explain that to us. Then explain how Massachusetts got a republican senator :2wave:

And while you are doing that...

Sixty-two percent (62%) are angry at the current policies of the federal government, with 42% who are very angry. While this is a sizable number, it’s slightly lower than the findings nationally.

Election 2010: Michigan Governor - Rasmussen Reports

Since health care has been the dominant topic this entire year, its in these numbers.

OK, so yeah, things are going over your head again and I need to talk alot slower. Senators, they vote on bills in congress. Governors, they do not. See this very large, unsubtle difference. I knew you could...
 
I've still yet to see ANYONE actually provide Chuck Grassley's 1993 plan beyond comparison charts with vague "Yes" and "no" answers based on the interpritation of that particular site. And even when it has been shown there is far to little data available in them to see how it compares to what is in this plan, shows there are things that conservatives like that aren't anywhere in this plan, and has no sign of a number of the things conservatives disliked about this plan.

Not to mention implying conservatives are hypocritical for not agreeing with it becasue it has similar "roots", which are questionable at best, implying those that like Football should like Golf because they both have a ball as a root to their sport.

The point is that there are Republican ideas and similarities (as noted in the article below) that could have been built upon. Instead they pretended like there was no part of it they agreed with. It had to be scrapped before they would even consider it. Remember, Republicans are the minority party and therefore any legislation would never be exactly what they would like to see. Those are the consequences of losing an election.

Here is the best I could do. I could not find his 1993 plan online.

Republicans Spurn Once-Favored Health Mandate | 89.3 KPCC


But Hatch's opposition is ironic, or some would say, politically motivated. The last time Congress debated a health overhaul, when Bill Clinton was president, Hatch and several other senators who now oppose the so-called individual mandate actually supported a bill that would have required it.

In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. "It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time."

The 'Free-Rider Effect'

Pauly, a conservative health economist at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, says it wasn't just his idea. Back in the late 1980s — when Democrats were pushing not just a requirement for employers to provide insurance, but also the possibility of a government-sponsored single-payer system — "a group of economists and health policy people, market-oriented, sat down and said, 'Let's see if we can come up with a health reform proposal that would preserve a role for markets but would also achieve universal coverage.' "

The idea of the individual mandate was about the only logical way to get there, Pauly says. That's because even with the most generous subsidies or enticements, "there would always be some Evel Knievels of health insurance, who would decline coverage even if the subsidies were very generous, and even if they could afford it, quote unquote, so if you really wanted to close the gap, that's the step you'd have to take."

One reason the individual mandate appealed to conservatives is because it called for individual responsibility to address what economists call the "free-rider effect." That's the fact that if a person is in an accident or comes down with a dread disease, that person is going to get medical care, and someone is going to pay for it.

"We called this responsible national health insurance," says Pauly. "There was a kind of an ethical and moral support for the notion that people shouldn't be allowed to free-ride on the charity of fellow citizens."

Republican, Democratic Bills Strikingly Similar

So while President Clinton was pushing for employers to cover their workers in his 1993 bill, John Chafee of Rhode Island, along with 20 other GOP senators and Rep. Bill Thomas of California, introduced legislation that instead featured an individual mandate. Four of those Republican co-sponsors — Hatch, Charles Grassley of Iowa, Robert Bennett of Utah and Christopher Bond of Missouri — remain in the Senate today.

The GOP's 1993 measure included some features Republicans still want Democrats to consider, including damage award caps for medical malpractice lawsuits.

But the summary of the Republican bill from the Clinton era and the Democratic bills that passed the House and Senate over the past few months are startlingly alike.

Beyond the requirement that everyone have insurance, both call for purchasing pools and standardized insurance plans. Both call for a ban on insurers denying coverage or raising premiums because a person has been sick in the past. Both even call for increased federal research into the effectiveness of medical treatments — something else that used to have strong bipartisan support, but that Republicans have been backing away from recently.

'A Sad Testament'

Nichols, of the New America Foundation, says he's depressed that so many issues that used to be part of the Republican health agenda are now being rejected by Republican leaders and most of the rank and file. "I think it's a sad testament to the state of relations among the parties that they've gotten to this point," he said.

And how does economist Pauly feel about the GOP's retreat from the individual mandate they used to promote? "That's not something that makes me particularly happy," he says.​
 
OK, so yeah, things are going over your head again and I need to talk alot slower.

Another typical cowardly ducking on the points made to you. Typical Redress.

It will take longer to type what you ducked and ran away from than it will to respond to what you said.

New segment for posts. Things that Redress ducked and ran away from:

#1! *drum-roll*

What did Massachusetts' newest senator run on? What was his platform?

hint: Its about health care and his vote

#2! What do the polls say about government in the state of Michigan?

Sixty-two percent (62%) are angry at the current policies of the federal government, with 42% who are very angry.

#3 What has been the primary topic and bill being decided upon this year?

Hint: It rhymes with Stealth Fare :2wave:

And the final question ducked by Redress:

Exactly how in your mind do you compute no impact from a bill that changes 1/6th of the economy and is in the minority for support not influence an election in any state right now?

Same old Redress taking the coveted Monty Python Holy Grail approach to debate. Run away

Senators, they vote on bills in congress. Governors, they do not. See this very large, unsubtle difference. I knew you could...

Never once did I mention governors Redress. Are you simply incapable of actually reading the arguments presented to you or is this a genetic condition? :rofl

The subject was the voters in Michigan and the reasons the democrats are behind in the polls. Please try to keep up.
 
The point is that there are Republican ideas and similarities (as noted in the article below) that could have been built upon. Instead they pretended like there was no part of it they agreed with. It had to be scrapped before they would even consider it. Remember, Republicans are the minority party and therefore any legislation would never be exactly what they would like to see. Those are the consequences of losing an election.

Here is the best I could do. I could not find his 1993 plan online.

Republicans Spurn Once-Favored Health Mandate | 89.3 KPCC


But Hatch's opposition is ironic, or some would say, politically motivated. The last time Congress debated a health overhaul, when Bill Clinton was president, Hatch and several other senators who now oppose the so-called individual mandate actually supported a bill that would have required it.

In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. "It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time."

The 'Free-Rider Effect'

Pauly, a conservative health economist at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, says it wasn't just his idea. Back in the late 1980s — when Democrats were pushing not just a requirement for employers to provide insurance, but also the possibility of a government-sponsored single-payer system — "a group of economists and health policy people, market-oriented, sat down and said, 'Let's see if we can come up with a health reform proposal that would preserve a role for markets but would also achieve universal coverage.' "

The idea of the individual mandate was about the only logical way to get there, Pauly says. That's because even with the most generous subsidies or enticements, "there would always be some Evel Knievels of health insurance, who would decline coverage even if the subsidies were very generous, and even if they could afford it, quote unquote, so if you really wanted to close the gap, that's the step you'd have to take."

One reason the individual mandate appealed to conservatives is because it called for individual responsibility to address what economists call the "free-rider effect." That's the fact that if a person is in an accident or comes down with a dread disease, that person is going to get medical care, and someone is going to pay for it.

"We called this responsible national health insurance," says Pauly. "There was a kind of an ethical and moral support for the notion that people shouldn't be allowed to free-ride on the charity of fellow citizens."

Republican, Democratic Bills Strikingly Similar

So while President Clinton was pushing for employers to cover their workers in his 1993 bill, John Chafee of Rhode Island, along with 20 other GOP senators and Rep. Bill Thomas of California, introduced legislation that instead featured an individual mandate. Four of those Republican co-sponsors — Hatch, Charles Grassley of Iowa, Robert Bennett of Utah and Christopher Bond of Missouri — remain in the Senate today.

The GOP's 1993 measure included some features Republicans still want Democrats to consider, including damage award caps for medical malpractice lawsuits.

But the summary of the Republican bill from the Clinton era and the Democratic bills that passed the House and Senate over the past few months are startlingly alike.

Beyond the requirement that everyone have insurance, both call for purchasing pools and standardized insurance plans. Both call for a ban on insurers denying coverage or raising premiums because a person has been sick in the past. Both even call for increased federal research into the effectiveness of medical treatments — something else that used to have strong bipartisan support, but that Republicans have been backing away from recently.

'A Sad Testament'

Nichols, of the New America Foundation, says he's depressed that so many issues that used to be part of the Republican health agenda are now being rejected by Republican leaders and most of the rank and file. "I think it's a sad testament to the state of relations among the parties that they've gotten to this point," he said.

And how does economist Pauly feel about the GOP's retreat from the individual mandate they used to promote? "That's not something that makes me particularly happy," he says.​

Excellent smack down Gina, just !@#$%^&*()(ing excellent !!!
 
Never once did I mention governors Redress. Are you simply incapable of actually reading the arguments presented to you or is this a genetic condition? :rofl

The subject was the voters in Michigan and the reasons the democrats are behind in the polls. Please try to keep up.

This is why you should read before you post. The prof was talking about a poll on the Michigan governors race. Now do you see why his point was not really a point?
 
This is why you should read before you post.


Things that Redress ducked again!

#1! *drum-roll*

What did Massachusetts' newest senator run on? What was his platform?

hint: Its about health care and his vote

#2! What do the polls say about government in the state of Michigan?

Sixty-two percent (62%) are angry at the current policies of the federal government, with 42% who are very angry.

#3 What has been the primary topic and bill being decided upon this year?

Hint: It rhymes with Stealth Fare

And the final question ducked by Redress:

Exactly how in your mind do you compute no impact from a bill that changes 1/6th of the economy and is in the minority for support not influence an election in any state right now?

The prof was talking about a poll on the Michigan governors race. Now do you see why his point was not really a point?


Actually Redress you once again prove you are the one who wasn't reading carefully.

did george win by TWENTY points?

cuz TWENTY is a LOT of points

in MICHIGAN

indeed, it represents a THIRTY FOUR point swing MY WAY just since president pieface became president pieface

thanks!

And

covered?

LOL!

well, it sure is bad

the economy, i mean

really, really bad

voters tend to hold responsible the party in power

that'd be the dems

It doesn't take a conservative to see that this is about how the voters are voting in Michigan not about how a governor can vote for or against the health care bill.

Thanks for the laugh Redress. And if you are going to hold onto this fantasy the subject was about how the governor could vote on the health care bill, please provide the direct quote from the Prof that states that.

Thanks! :2wave:
 
So you have absolutely nothing concrete except you want to believe the democrats are bad people and boo hoo we lost.
I didn't say Democrats are bad people, I said these Democrats are corrupt. Instead of everyone claiming the minority is crying, why don't we admit that these politicians are out of control.
 
I didn't say Democrats are bad people, I said these Democrats are corrupt. Instead of everyone claiming the minority is crying, why don't we admit that these politicians are out of control.

Have you considered the possibility that BOTH statements might be true?
 
What did Massachusetts' newest senator run on? What was his platform?

hint: Its about health care and his vote.

Hmm. It would be hilarious if Brown had actually voted for Romney's Mass. health care reform law, which is alot like the new federal one, when he was in the state legislature.

Oh, wait a minute...
 
Hmm. It would be hilarious if Brown had actually voted for Romney's Mass. health care reform law, which is alot like the new federal one, when he was in the state legislature.

Oh, wait a minute...

That is hilarious. It's almost as if he wants his state to be able to keep its own health care system and make its own changes without submitting to a nationwide one. That's a pretty ridiculous concept.
 
I didn't say Democrats are bad people, I said these Democrats are corrupt. Instead of everyone claiming the minority is crying, why don't we admit that these politicians are out of control.

And just what makes you think for one second that democrats are any more corrupt than the republicans are? Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and a thousand republican bought talking heads say thy are? That's where the corruption is.
 
No, because the polls say so.

Rasmussen Poll

This health care reform is NOT popular. Many democrats don't want it because it doesnt do what they want and many republicans don't want it because it does too much.

This health care reform is not popular. I don't give a rat's ass how much stock you put in Obamessiah. This health care reform is simply not popular.

No the polls say so because of all the nonsense. The Bill is a compromise between what the Special interests want and what Obama wants. Therefore half of it is ****ty and the other half is good. People overwhelming like the good things in it.
 
They should take a poll and ask everyone if they think the bill has "Death Panels" and other crap like that in it. Those who do can be excluded becuase they have no ****ing idea what they're talking about. Then we can count the rest. The positives will go way up.
 
They should take a poll and ask everyone if they think the bill has "Death Panels" and other crap like that in it. Those who do can be excluded becuase they have no ****ing idea what they're talking about. Then we can count the rest. The positives will go way up.

That would only be useful if they defined exactly what they meant by "death panels"

I thought it was a ridiculous stupid and trumped up name for a government panel that oversees potential treatments for some people, essentially rationing care, based on some beuracrats paramaters akin to what is done by the insurance agencies but is worse (for example, without the appeals process they have in private insurance).

That IS in the Bill. I wouldn't call it a "death panel" simply because its idiotic rhetoric, but if asked the question on a poll simply labeling it as "do you think 'death panel's' are in the bill" and what I just stated is how I interprit people meaning when they say "death panels" I would likely vote yes.
 
That would only be useful if they defined exactly what they meant by "death panels"

No definition needed. A death panel is where the government decides who dies. There is nothing even remotely close to such a thing in the law. Despite the idiotic imaginations of some people who don't know how to read legislative language or have paranoid delusions.

I thought it was a ridiculous stupid and trumped up name for a government panel that oversees potential treatments for some people, essentially rationing care, based on some beuracrats paramaters akin to what is done by the insurance agencies but is worse (for example, without the appeals process they have in private insurance).

That IS in the Bill.

No, it's not. But that's another issue.

I wouldn't call it a "death panel" simply because its idiotic rhetoric, but if asked the question on a poll simply labeling it as "do you think 'death panel's' are in the bill" and what I just stated is how I interprit people meaning when they say "death panels" I would likely vote yes.

But we can't tell your vote apart from those who really believe the government is going to kill people. So we'd have to change the question to separate idiotic rhetoric from reality.
 
No definition needed. A death panel is where the government decides who dies. There is nothing even remotely close to such a thing in the law. Despite the idiotic imaginations of some people who don't know how to read legislative language or have paranoid delusions.

"Death Panel" is a slogan, trumped up rhetoric meant to simplify something filled with nuance into a short sound bite, and like so often in politics failing miserably in actually being realistically summarized.

The "Death Panel" talk began essentially around the rationing ideas.

No, it's not. But that's another issue.

Yes, it is. I believe its between pages 20 and 30.

But we can't tell your vote apart from those who really believe the government is going to kill people. So we'd have to change the question to separate idiotic rhetoric from reality.

Exactly why I said that the question is a stupid one. Because depending on what day of the week someone like me could literally vote "yes" or "no" on it not actually based on the question, but based on rather they want to answer based on the spirit of the question (IE do you think the things people are calling "death panels" are in the bill) or the literal meaning of the bill (IE is there something in the bill actaully called a "death panel" or that you'd call a "death panel").
 
"Death Panel" is a slogan, trumped up rhetoric meant to simplify something filled with nuance into a short sound bite, and like so often in politics failing miserably in actually being realistically summarized.

The "Death Panel" talk began essentially around the rationing ideas.

Are you saying there aren't lots and lots of people out there who don't LITERALLY believe there is a panel of government officials who decide who lives and dies out there?

Yes, it is. I believe its between pages 20 and 30.

No, it's not. Please quote the language or give me a citation.

I asked this from a previous poster recently and he never could do it. He kept throwing page numbers and stuff at me, and it just wasn't there. If you have a section number, provide it. I'll explain what the language actually means.

Exactly why I said that the question is a stupid one. Because depending on what day of the week someone like me could literally vote "yes" or "no" on it not actually based on the question, but based on rather they want to answer based on the spirit of the question (IE do you think the things people are calling "death panels" are in the bill) or the literal meaning of the bill (IE is there something in the bill actaully called a "death panel" or that you'd call a "death panel").

I think people who use "death panel" as the spirit of the question should be excluded too. But I get your point. Fine, we'll change the question to say is there literally a death panel in the bill.

My point is that there are endless lies about this law going around. People either read legislative language and dont' understand it, or they just lie.
 
They should take a poll and ask everyone if they think the bill has "Death Panels" and other crap like that in it. Those who do can be excluded becuase they have no ****ing idea what they're talking about. Then we can count the rest. The positives will go way up.

My point is that there are endless lies about this law going around. People either read legislative language and dont' understand it, or they just lie.

------>

Wow, you don't like democracy.

:roll:
 
They should take a poll and ask everyone if they think the bill has "Death Panels" and other crap like that in it. Those who do can be excluded becuase they have no ****ing idea what they're talking about. Then we can count the rest. The positives will go way up.

You have yet to sufficiently prove that the "death panels" insinuation are wrong on any count except the strength of the rhetoric. And no, polls should not discount people just because you don't like the answers they give. Too ****ing bad, go cry someone a river. The poll stands.
 
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