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Thread: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

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    Re: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Your argument might actually work if the typically American voter could tell you anything substantive about candidates, as is our people were pissed off at Republicans and the dicatator in training had a D behind his name.
    The average voter doesn't have to understand all of the issues. He/she elected people to handle his/her business legislatively. That's how a representative democracy functions.

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    Re: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Do you think the people who elected them to office DID NOT REALIZE that they were electing people who'd be doing something about healthcare?
    Obviously, some people did not realize that the bill that ultimately passed was going to exist and was going to pass, and that their representatives in Congress were going to vote for it. In fact, I know at least two of those people. My mother and brother voted for Mark Warner for Senate because he said he was a moderate who would work across party lines. Guess what the chances of them voting for him again are.

    But let's spin things another way. According to you, people vote for a party (a dumb concept to begin with) to do what the party leaders say they will do. Obama said he would bring a new era of post-partisanship. So since he got voted into office, he was supposed to do that... and yet, with the health care bill, he sided with the entirely partisan majority in Congress against the bipartisan minority. Even by your logic then, Obama defied the will of the voters by supporting this bill.

    And now we should pretend like the Republicans won...and let them dictate how things will be.
    Lots of Republicans won, in both the House and the Senate. They were elected to obstruct legislation which they and their constituents did not like. They did their jobs.

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    Re: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    You can show me where I said this? I said the Constitution doesn't apply democracy to military strategy, so the whole surge thing is a red herring.
    This is a classic Redress tactic. When you can't argue the facts you impose an opinion your opponent never used.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    The average voter doesn't have to understand all of the issues. He/she elected people to handle his/her business legislatively. That's how a representative democracy functions.
    Really. So where does it say elected officials are supposed to vote on bills they don't read?
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Obviously, some people did not realize that the bill that ultimately passed was going to exist and was going to pass, and that their representatives in Congress were going to vote for it.
    In 2000, when I voted for George W. Bush, I didn't know that airplanes were going to be flown by terrorists into two large buildings in NYC and that in 2001, we were going to declare war on the Taliban, and in 2003, we'd start a war with Iraq. **** happens.

    The representatives and the president were elected to do a job, and they were elected with an overwhelming mandate that supported healthcare reform. That was part of their winning platform.

    The Republican party not only had a chance to create a vision for America's future that appealed to voters, but they also had an opportunity to work with the Democrats to craft this legislation. They abdicated that responsibility in both cases.

    If I were you, I'd be pissed at them, and not at Obama, who is simply delivering on the promises he made to the people who voted for him.

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    Re: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Really. So where does it say elected officials are supposed to vote on bills they don't read?
    Are you attempting to present an argument here? If so, you've failed. This is a strawman fallacy.

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    Re: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Lots of Republicans won, in both the House and the Senate. They were elected to obstruct legislation which they and their constituents did not like. They did their jobs.
    Lots isn't a majority. The majority of representation in this country is currently from the Democratic party. The Republicans can figure out how to work within that system, or they can continue to fail.

    Every indicator suggests that they are still in full-on whiny bitch mode and will continue to fail/flail/make asses of themselves.

    It's unfortunate. I prefer a healthy two-party system, not Nancy Pelosi emasculating the other party. I don't really like her, truth be told.

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    Re: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Are you attempting to present an argument here? If so, you've failed. This is a strawman fallacy.
    Actually no its not. Don't put trust in congressional democrats who didn't read the bill they were voting on.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    The average voter doesn't have to understand all of the issues. He/she elected people to handle his/her business legislatively. That's how a representative democracy functions.
    I consume alot of news Catz and to be honest I'd say healthcare was maybe 2.5% of the discussion coming into the elections. This is my perspective, but when I talked to people here who voted for Obama it was mainly that they were voting for party, a couple of people said it was time to "try something other than old white guys", or "Well, I wanted Hillary but....", in fact, I don't remember healthcare being a major issue before it was mentioned as the agenda during the presidency. Now, this isn't to say that politicos weren't talking about it, but the average person wasn't.

    And, most of the people I know that voted for Obama are pretty quiet right now, you could see it in their faces that they didn't want anything this administration is doing. The only two people in my family I know of that voted for him are quiet, my cousin because she has no arguments pro, and my uncle because when the facts hit him his arguments turn into a stutter fest.

    EDIT- And you'll never get me to agree that the average voter doesn't have to understand the issues, I am a fan of having to take an issues test before you can cast a vote.
    Last edited by LaMidRighter; 03-25-10 at 08:59 PM.
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    Re: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Actually no its not. Don't praise democrats who didn't read the bill they were voting on.
    Every elected official congresscritter has multiple staff members whose jobs consist of reading and analyzing legislation. Your argument IS in fact a strawman.

    Here's how a strawman works:

    Person A has position X.
    Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
    Person B attacks position Y.
    Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

    This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.


    So, for instance, in my case, I suggested that Democratic representatives were following the will of the people who elected them.
    You stated that they voted for a bill that they didn't read.
    You then attacked that position. And then, pretended that it made my argument false.



    p.s. I expect a thanks for this considerate lesson in basic logic.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 03-25-10 at 09:00 PM.

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    Re: House GOP No. 2: Someone shot at my office

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I consume alot of news Catz and to be honest I'd say healthcare was maybe 2.5% of the discussion coming into the elections. This is my perspective, but when I talked to people here who voted for Obama it was mainly that they were voting for party, a couple of people said it was time to "try something other than old white guys", or "Well, I wanted Hillary but....", in fact, I don't remember healthcare being a major issue before it was mentioned as the agenda during the presidency. Now, this isn't to say that politicos weren't talking about it, but the average person wasn't.

    And, most of the people I know that voted for Obama are pretty quiet right now, you could see it in their faces that they didn't want anything this administration is doing. The only two people in my family I know of that voted for him are quiet, my cousin because she has no arguments pro, and my uncle because when the facts hit him his arguments turn into a stutter fest.
    And conversely, there are lots of people who are angry because Obama didn't go far enough. The health care bill is not nearly what they hoped for. There are also a great number who are angry DADT is still on the books, Gitmo is open for business and we are not getting out of Iraq fast enough for them.

    So...


    As far as health care not being an up front issue, I disagree. Obama brought that up often when he spoke of his mother and how she was dying of cancer while fighting with insurance companies because they were denying her coverage saying it was a pre-existing condition.

    This was a well known plank in his platform, because it was so personal to him.

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