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Thread: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

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    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    What's gonna happen is, when CA legalizes weed, they're gonna stop growing oranges and then my orange juice prices will skyrocket!

    The price of a Screwdriver will double overnight.
    You still got the OJ, it comes from my neighborhood here in Florida (well Brazil too, but that kind of talk around here is blasphemy).. Ca is mostly about the eatin oranges.

    Anyhow, the bulk of recreational cannabis will be almost certainly grown indoors and in greenhouses, both for quality purposes (avoiding pollination and seeds), and also to keep a kid from straying onto the pot field and picking a few buds.
    Last edited by marduc; 03-25-10 at 09:25 PM.
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    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    This is something that has to be done correctly, and there needs to be checks in place to evaluate the pricing, and to make sure that they can be adapted to accomplish the primary goal of rendering the black market obsolete.

    There were 2 bills going through state legislation last year, one in CA, and one in Mass. The Ca bill proposal had a $50 an ounce tax rate, hefty, yet quite reasonable, and still leaves ample room for profitability while undercutting the black market. The Mass. Proposal had a sliding scale depending on THC content, and went as high as $250 an ounce, this threw red flags up for me, it is too much, and would still leave room for potential black markets IMO. Then I read the bill more, and there were mechanisms in it to regularly evaluate and adjust the tax rate accordingly to properly balance tax income versus black market eradication. I still fear with that particular piece of legislation lawmakers may try to get too greedy.

    There is ample room to tax heavily, and STILL undermine black market prices. marijuana does not take much money to actually grow, and the cartels are making their money off from relatively low quality seeded marijuana grown outdoors, the quality will most assuredly go up, just as the quality currently available for medicinal marijuana is way above your typical mexican brick weed.

    It is a necessity to out compete the black market, fortunately, this is extremely easy to do.
    I agree $50 a oz sounds reasonable to me given the prices out there but I remember reading the MA propsosal and thinking that this may never work. A $250 tax is crazy imo that is 1/3 the price of alot of whats in the streets. Not to mention cartels would probably lower there prices to compete. I agree with you that lawmakers may get greedy (when do they not?) and continously raise the taxes just as they have done with tobacco and alcohol.

    Many will of course pay extra just to be able to do it legally. However I suspect the fight will never go away. Look at alcohol for example. We still raid and jail people for home stilling. With home growing (low quality) being alot cheaper and alot easier then home brewing I feel we will always have a black market.

    Im not a consumer but I fully believe that it should be legal. I just feel that alot of people believe that once its legal that all law enforcment in the matter will disappear.

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    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    It's not regulation to say something is illegal or not marriage. How is government any bigger due to criminalized drugs and homosexual marriages not being legal? By your reasoning are all laws for big government? So should all who support limited government also support anarchy and a lawless society? We have laws because of morality, so should murder and rape be legal to shrink government influence?



    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Actually, regulation would be going in and changing the laws to force the government to allow homosexuals to have marital status.

    Laws don't stop gays from having gay relationships, they just don't recognize it as marriage. Drugs are harmful and dangerous substances and there are wise reasons for their criminal status. I don't want to de-rail this thread, but moral legislation is not about giving government control, it's about ethics and not recognizing what many believe to be immoral as moral.

    Okay. Digsbe, you and I are generally on a similar wavelength, since (unless I've misread you) we're both theologically conservative Christians. But, I have a different perspective on the drug legalization issue, and I'd like to explore a few concepts here.

    The War on Drugs: this has been an expensive "War", it shows no sign of ever ending, and it has been an abject failure. I would know; as a former LEO I was a footsoldier on the front lines and I can tell you we will never enforce drug abuse out of existence.
    Furthermore the WoD has been used as an excuse and a means to dramatic expand police powers, police presence, police militarization and at least arguably infringements on various Constitutional rights, namely against unreasonable search and seizure, and asset forfeiture before conviction.

    Moral vs Legal; law and morality. I agree with you that all law is, ultimately, based on morality. Murder is illegal because we believe it is wrong; that is the very definition of moral values because it is a judgement of rightness or wrongness.
    Yet, not everything that is legal is moral; nor is everything that is moral, legal. Nor is everything that is legal, wise to do. In other words, there is not and never has been a 1 for 1 congruence between morality and law... and I expect there never will be. Part of the reason being a lack of consensus on morality.
    --- Now, hold the phone a minute. You probably believe there are moral absolutes, based on the commandments of God in the Bible... you know what, so do I.
    The problem, often pointed out by non-Christians, is that those of us who claim His name, have some trouble agreeing on a good bit of what is moral commandment and what isn't, even within our own ranks.
    For instance, I don't work or do business on Sunday, except in cases of emergency. I have a sister who is very devout who sees no problem with going out to lunch at a restaurant after church; in fact her whole church goes out together, including the preacher. There are other people on the other extreme who would tell me that even in an emergency I should not buy, sell or work on Sunday. Others say that since Saturday was the "original Sabbath" that we should keep Saturday and not Sunday.
    --- The folks holding these viewpoints all proclaim themselves Christian, and all seem to be sincere and honest in the position they take.
    Who is right? If we're making morality into law, whose position do we make into law?
    If we did, how far do we take that, BTW? Do you get a fine, or do we go OT and stone violators?
    My point in all that was morality and legality are never fully congruent, because it depends on one's perspective. If the 7th Day Adventists ruled the country and forced me to keep Sabbath law from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, that would be moral to them but an infringement on my conscience to me. See my point?
    A lot of things are legal that many think are morally wrong: abortion, alcohol, various forms of gambling, etc.
    Some things are illegal that should not be.

    Back to the drug thing...
    Are there any verses in the Bible that explicitly forbid the use of drugs? I don't know of any offhand. There are cautions about wine and strong drink, and harsh condemnation of being a drunkard (a habitual drunk, and alcoholic), which could be interpreted to apply to all things intoxicating. There's "the body is a temple" thing too, but that one has been stretched several miles beyond its original context already.
    I know a guy who claims to be a Christian, and seems to be pretty devout, who thinks there is nothing wrong with smoking weed and who does so regularly. I don't agree with him but if imbibing alcohol in moderation is okay then I don't have much scriptural firepower to bash him with. Having been an ex-cop I don't think weed is any worse than booze, if it is even as bad. The difference is in legality, and that is only mala prohibitum and a circular argument.

    I don't drink or do drugs of any kind myself... well unless you count caffine and nicotine...which some people do, oops.

    Now I'm finally meandering around to my point here...

    There isn't much argument that murder is immoral, so hardly anybody has a problem with it being illegal.
    There are people who would like to see Prohibition (on booze) tried again, including some of my fellow Baptists. There isn't much support for the idea though, even among Christians, and the first time we tried Prohibition it didn't work worth a darn... backfired, even.

    See, even if you think people are better off not to drink alcohol, it would appear that banning booze just makes the problem worse and adds other problems too (see Al Capone).

    Many of the same arguments apply to drug legalization.

    There is a difference between banning something that is widely deemed to be morally evil, mala in se , like murder... and banning something that lacks a similar widespread moral concern, like weed.

    I'd like to close with a quote from C.S. Lewis, that highly reputable author of the Narnia books and many works in Christian apologetics:

    Quote Originally Posted by C.S. Lewis
    "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baronís cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

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    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post

    Many will of course pay extra just to be able to do it legally. However I suspect the fight will never go away. Look at alcohol for example. We still raid and jail people for home stilling. With home growing (low quality) being alot cheaper and alot easier then home brewing I feel we will always have a black market.
    There will always be a small black market yes, but the important thing is the scope of the blackmarket. How much of a problem is moonshine currently, do we have a problem with street gangs dealing it, or selling it to our school kids? How did the bootleggers fare post alcohol prohibition? They were out of business, and what was left was very limited in scope, and scale, a scale that is manageable and not deleterious to soceity.
    Last edited by marduc; 03-25-10 at 10:01 PM.
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    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    You still got the OJ, it comes from my neighborhood here in Florida (well Brazil too, but that kind of talk around here is blasphemy).. Ca is mostly about the eatin oranges.

    Anyhow, the bulk of recreational cannabis will be almost certainly grown indoors and in greenhouses, both for quality purposes (avoiding pollination and seeds), and also to keep a kid from straying onto the pot field and picking a few buds.
    I know Bubba, and FL oranges ARE the BEST! But it's all about supply and demand. But, now that I think of it. Even though orange prices will go up, pot prices will go down

    In the end, I'm better off, I suppose.

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    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Baralis View Post
    I believe that even if it were legalized in all 50 states we would still be fighting the war on weed and the cartels.

    Legal weed will be taxed and probably at a rather high rate such as tobacco. So people will still be willing to purchase better quality/cheaper rates on the black market. So we will still be busting growers and buyers that try and avoid taxes.

    I am curous. Since the most liberal states seem to push tobacco restrictions (can't smoke in public, around kids, ect.) will they make the same push for restricting pot?
    I can tell you have never been to Texas.
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    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    It's going to take a lot of money in advertising to get it passed because a lot of money will be coming in to fight against legalization.

    I predict CORPORATE INTERESTS will spend ridiculous amounts of money to stop legalization, not so much because of some moral stance but because it will open the door for Industrial Hemp cultivation and that will adversely affect many entrenched industries, which is the real reason for prohibition in the first place.


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    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    It's going to take a lot of money in advertising to get it passed because a lot of money will be coming in to fight against legalization.

    I predict CORPORATE INTERESTS will spend ridiculous amounts of money to stop legalization, not so much because of some moral stance but because it will open the door for Industrial Hemp cultivation and that will adversely affect many entrenched industries, which is the real reason for prohibition in the first place.


    Isn't there a difference between hemp and marijuana? Basically one has low amounts of thc in it and the other does? SO how would that apply to recreational use?
    Last edited by jamesrage; 03-26-10 at 01:29 PM.
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    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    I would be willing to bet the cartels would be willing to pay taxes to the state for the right to sell their product.

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    Re: Calif. voters to decide whether to legalize pot

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    That's an ounce. It's about 60 joints (according to the internets).
    No, you don't quite get 60 joints out of an ounce unless they are little pin joints. Joints usually get rolled in one of three thicknesses...pencil, pinky, thumb. Even if you rolled them all pencil thickness, you wouldn't quite get 60 joints out of an ounce after you destemmed and, possibly if it's lower grade weed, pick through the seeds.

    Ummm, err, according to the internets.

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