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Health Care Bill has passed

1069 said:
Maybe you should find somewhere else to live, then, because this is modern civilization.
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Don't give me that horse****. This is grand theft taxation, this is forced redistribution, and as unamerican as Borscht.
 
digsbe said:
A fringe group that constitutes the majority of American?! There is no spin, just facts. The spin is the emotional appeal that the Democrats try to use in order to make us feel heartsick over people dying because of evil insurance companies. Yet we are rewarding the special interests of these companies by illegally forcing everyone to give money to them. True the insurance companies don't have people's best interests at heart, but neither does the Democrat party and that shows with their rewarding the insurance companies and with their ignoring the majority of America.
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Please, illustrate, link or document how the bill or the Dems are rewarding insurance companies, who, by and large were dead set against the bill, in any form. If the bill were so rewarding to insurance companies, why were they dead against it? I patiently await your response.
 
donc said:
Don,t worry about it Lex, i,ve seen the same scare tactics used once before in my lifetime, that was when medicare was passed.

Almost looks like I have entered a damn time warp seeing the same lies being rolled out :roll:
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Hmm, you do realize that Medicare is unsustainable, right?

Private insurance largely subsidizes Medicare.

It may take a while, but we'll find that this is more of the same.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Other people aren't my responsibility, and I am sick and ****ing tired of literally everyone getting access to other people's money, services, and time. This needs to end, not expand like this bill seeks to do.
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I suppose that make my position somewhat difficult for you to stomach then. A small business owner who, at heart, cares about the welfare of others. There is a value to living in a safe society of healthy, educated people. I think it's a noble cause to strive for such an existence, even if it sounds somewhat Utopian.

There are good uses of tax dollars, and bad uses. The war in Iraq is a good example of how to squander hundreds of billions for absolutely no ROI. I rarely see conservatives complaining about this. Yet this health care bill...well, that is another story.

I don't know why this surprises me. It's simply par for the course.
 
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Lerxst said:
I suppose that make my position somewhat difficult for you to stomach then. A small business owner who, at heart, cares about the welfare of others. There is a value to living in a safe society of healthy, educated people. I think it's a noble cause to strive for such an existence, even if it sounds somewhat Utopian.

There are good uses of tax dollars, and bad uses. The war in Iraq is a good example of how to squander hundreds of billions for absolutely no ROI. I rarely see conservatives complaining about this. Yet this health care bill...well, that is another story.

I don't know why this surprises me. It's simply par for the course.
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You're a beautiful person, Lerxst.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Other people aren't my responsibility, and I am sick and ****ing tired of literally everyone getting access to other people's money, services, and time. This needs to end, not expand like this bill seeks to do.
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You're paying and going to pay, anyway. What this bill does is alters how this occurs. I haven't looked into the fine print of this thing. From what I know there are some things I like, and there are some that I do not. It will help me professionally in some ways, and hurt in others. Personally, it will affect me very little. My guess is that will be true for most people.

Some of the conservative reaction to this reminds me of some of the liberal reaction when Bush was elected in '00. I heard some folks saying that it was like electing Hitler. It wasn't. Those who think the passing of this bill is "the end" are being overdramatic and over reacting. It isn't.
 
Health insurance is not 1/6 of the US economy.

Health care costs in the US are equal to around 15% of the US GDP, with at least last year 40% or so being covered by the various governments. Meaning healt insurance would be at most 1/11 of the US.
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Healthcare and Health Insurance aren't the same thing. As well, you may have missed that little point that every single company reinvests into insurance companies. As well, you just mentioned that health costs are 15% of GDP. That is a misnomer, the GDP is an aggregate, health costs are individual outlays........well, apparently not anymore, now that the government is close to being completely on the hook it'll be a problem of the aggregate.

Also the government will not allow health care to be overused, as it will restrict usage depending on funding. Expensive options will most likely not be covered by the government side, making less expensive options the primary choice
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[/QUOTE] Ah, so we're forced to pay taxes on services they deem we cannot recieve at this time, that would be rationing. Sure, why not? Sounds like a great idea.....I mean.....if you don't mind that whole dying thing.:roll:
 
digsbe said:
A fringe group that constitutes the majority of American?! There is no spin, just facts. The spin is the emotional appeal that the Democrats try to use in order to make us feel heartsick over people dying because of evil insurance companies. Yet we are rewarding the special interests of these companies by illegally forcing everyone to give money to them. True the insurance companies don't have people's best interests at heart, but neither does the Democrat party and that shows with their rewarding the insurance companies and with their ignoring the majority of America.
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This is the pot call the kettle black, the GOP uses spin and fear everyday, Iraq, health care, illegal immigrants, etc.
 
Lerxst said:
I suppose that make my position somewhat difficult for you to stomach then. A small business owner who, at heart, cares about the welfare of others. There is a value to living in a safe society of healthy, educated people. I think it's a noble cause to strive for such an existence, even if it sounds somewhat Utopian.
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There is nothing noble about forcing your neighbor to pay for others wellbeing. I care about others as well, but when I can give....I choose to do so, I don't want it forcible taken from me for things that are not constitutional.

There are good uses of tax dollars, and bad uses. The war in Iraq is a good example of how to squander hundreds of billions for absolutely no ROI. I rarely see conservatives complaining about this. Yet this health care bill...well, that is another story.
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This health bill is crap.
 
Those who think the passing of this bill is "the end" are being overdramatic and over reacting. It isn't.
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Rather, it's the beginning: of a healthier life, a life with less needless suffering, for many people I know- 30% of adults uninsured in my state! Think about it! One out of three. And we're not even the worst. Other states are worse off.

Society will benefit if people are able to get treatment for their chronic and acute illnesses before they become permanently disabled from them.
That will help the economy, not hurt it.

Every single one of us gets sick. Someday, each of us will get so sick that we won't be able to get better again, and we'll die.
This is true no matter how well we try to take care of ourselves.
People need to be able to go to the doctor. Everyone gets sick.
One out of three adults not having access to medical care is unacceptable.
No wonder our economy is in the tank.
 
aaronssongs said:
Please, illustrate, link or document how the bill or the Dems are rewarding insurance companies, who, by and large were dead set against the bill, in any form. If the bill were so rewarding to insurance companies, why were they dead against it? I patiently await your response.
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They are going to get roughly 30 million new customers.

How could they not be happy?
 
LaMidRighter said:
Don't give me that horse****. This is grand theft taxation, this is forced redistribution, and as unamerican as Borscht.
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I agree. I HATE borscht.

When it comes right down to it, programs like this are needed to some extent, basically because, no matter how much some folks want to pretend it's NOT true, none of us lives in a vacuum. What happens to you, affects me in some way. That is what happens in this country. You are being naive if you think that some of your tax money doesn't go for programs and policies that help others... and that this does NOTHING for you. If it helps the country, it helps you.

Whenever I think about this stuff, I am always reminded of the old BELL commercial from before the phone company break-up. The catch phrase was "We're All Connected". Denying this fact is ridiculous. We ARE all connected.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
They are going to get roughly 30 million new customers.

How could they not be happy?
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THIS is a major problem I have with this bill. Though there were some regulations of the insurance industry that I am happy about, I'm not sure if they offset this one simple fact.

That's why I wanted the public option as an OPTION.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
You're paying and going to pay, anyway. What this bill does is alters how this occurs. I haven't looked into the fine print of this thing. From what I know there are some things I like, and there are some that I do not. It will help me professionally in some ways, and hurt in others. Personally, it will affect me very little. My guess is that will be true for most people.
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I disagree Cap. Everything I've seen so far is the perfect plan to screw people, and it will hurt the market, I am going on record as saying this is an economy killer.. For every one good thing this bill might accomplish, this puts us about five to ten steps back from where we need to be in reducing costs.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
THIS is a major problem I have with this bill. Though there were some regulations of the insurance industry that I am happy about, I'm not sure if they offset this one simple fact.

That's why I wanted the public option as an OPTION.
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We had a cool plan but it was full of good ideas and cooperation.
It would have never worked.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Healthcare and Health Insurance aren't the same thing. As well, you may have missed that little point that every single company reinvests into insurance companies. As well, you just mentioned that health costs are 15% of GDP. That is a misnomer, the GDP is an aggregate, health costs are individual outlays........well, apparently not anymore, now that the government is close to being completely on the hook it'll be a problem of the aggregate.
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Ah, so we're forced to pay taxes on services they deem we cannot recieve at this time, that would be rationing. Sure, why not? Sounds like a great idea.....I mean.....if you don't mind that whole dying thing.:roll:[/QUOTE]

Rationing occurs in any case does it not

All that is changing is that more people will have access to rationed health care

And if 1/6 of the US economy is going to health care, it is no wonder the US economy is in the toilet.
 
LaMidRighter said:
There is nothing noble about forcing your neighbor to pay for others wellbeing. I care about others as well, but when I can give....I choose to do so, I don't want it forcible taken from me for things that are not constitutional.
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I understand you're anger, but you are smarter than this. Taxes are NOT forcing your neighbor to pay for others... and that's what you are implying. That's a weak talking point.

This health bill is crap.
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Some, I'm sure is. It didn't go far enough with regulation, and may have gone too far with citizen control, without enough choices.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I agree. I HATE borscht.

When it comes right down to it, programs like this are needed to some extent, basically because, no matter how much some folks want to pretend it's NOT true, none of us lives in a vacuum. What happens to you, affects me in some way. That is what happens in this country. You are being naive if you think that some of your tax money doesn't go for programs and policies that help others... and that this does NOTHING for you. If it helps the country, it helps you.

Whenever I think about this stuff, I am always reminded of the old BELL commercial from before the phone company break-up. The catch phrase was "We're All Connected". Denying this fact is ridiculous. We ARE all connected.
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This is a problem. We are connected again, because of years of regulatory and tort abuse, what happens to you has an affect on me because of any bad that happens to the care provider, because these bad things happen thousands of times a day worldwide, we get to suffer the affects through increases of cost. But instead of doing the difficult things and fixing problems, the morons on Capitol Hill are passing a complete piece of **** that will swing the pendulum completely towards the side of inefficiency and abuse.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
We had a cool plan but it was full of good ideas and cooperation.
It would have never worked.
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Remember that plan we had? I was telling it to one of my libertarian friends, and he said the same thing you did. I should be President.

Unfortunately, you're right. It was intelligent, bipartisan, and no one would have listened.
 
LaMidRighter said:
There is nothing noble about forcing your neighbor to pay for others wellbeing.
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I can play "twist the words" as well. Use of tax dollars to provide health care to our citizens is very noble cause. There is nothing noble about invading a nation that is not a threat to the U.S. and using our tax dollars to distribute death and destruction amongst a population who didn't want us there.

Do you see how this works?

I care about others as well, but when I can give....I choose to do so, I don't want it forcible taken from me for things that are not constitutional.
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And how do you feel about your taxpayer dollars being used to sustain an occupation of a foreign country, for which there is no measurable ROI? Because I've been here a long, long time and I just don't recall you getting all up in a fuss over that forcible taking of your money.

So would you agree that you are okay with wasteful use of your tax dollar when the agenda suits your personal fancy?

This health bill is crap.
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This bill may in fact be crap, I don't know. The idea behind it is very worthy in my opinion.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Remember that plan we had? I was telling it to one of my libertarian friends, and he said the same thing you did. I should be President.

Unfortunately, you're right. It was intelligent, bipartisan, and no one would have listened.
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I would vote for you.
 
LaMidRighter said:
I disagree Cap. Everything I've seen so far is the perfect plan to screw people, and it will hurt the market, I am going on record as saying this is an economy killer.. For every one good thing this bill might accomplish, this puts us about five to ten steps back from where we need to be in reducing costs.
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I don't agree, but I want to see the fine print before committing to that. My guess is that the increased costs may be offset by the costs of the uninsured. Not sure about that. It may be that only time will tell.
 
aaronssongs said:
Please, illustrate, link or document how the bill or the Dems are rewarding insurance companies, who, by and large were dead set against the bill, in any form. If the bill were so rewarding to insurance companies, why were they dead against it? I patiently await your response.
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Here is an article from the liberal Huffington post explaining how insurance companies support this David Dayen: The "Insurance Companies Support Health Care Reform" Gambit
Here is also polling results showing that the majority of America does not want this bill.
RealClearPolitics - Election Other - Obama and Democrats' Health Care Plan
 
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