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Thread: Health Care Bill has passed

  1. #211
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    Re: Health Care Bill has passed

    The true battle will begin when the States reject the Socialist/Marxist Obama agenda.

    It could lead to more problems and divisions than have been seen since 1861.

    Over 20 States have talked about refusing to go along and with the vast majority of the PEOPLE saying no this, Obama may find he is the cause of something more than even he and his minions bargained for.

    Some Texans are looking for a reason/excuse for cessation and just the serious consideration will be awful.

    This Phony Health Plan along with the needless waste of money on it along with the equally PHONY reasons for Car and Trade may be the start of the resurrection of the Declaration of Independence.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it
    Forcing this on an unwilling majority the way it has been done with lies and bribery threats and intimidation falls into the quote I just cited.

    I hope that cooler heads prevail until the Nov. elections when we have a chance to correct the massive errors that have just taken place.

    Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.

  2. #212
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    Re: Health Care Bill has passed

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    All true, I was intentionally keeping it simple as a starting point. Louisiana has overhired in various agencies for years and the bill is past due, we are in a cutting period for non-essential government employees ourselves, I do agree it's a structure due for a complete overhaul. As for the timeframe argument there are potentially better options, that I'll concede. What I think needs to happen with re-evaluations is an establishment of some effort towards recipient independence where possible. If someone is permanently disabled or if they cannot be reasonably found otherwise to be capable of providing for themselves for a very narrow array of factors, I see no problem with them drawing on services.
    I would agree with most of what you say here, though, I still say in some cases MORE hiring increases efficiency. And the factors that determine if one can continue to receive benefits would be somewhat more liberal from me than from you, I would imagine.


    There are good and bad companies, the most abuse I've seen or heard about from the private sector was in certain group policies and HMO's, although individual insurance in the form of indemnity insurance(which is outdated, these should be outlawed) have happened. I will say there was a h.i. company I worked for a total of 4 days, I was physically ill at the end of my tenure there. They sold the big promise of a model where I had a desk, shot at management, and could retain independence. All lies, they did not offer flexibility in sales technique and prefered the "sell hard and misrepresent" approach and had multiple policy loopholes created in the contract, however these companies are not the standard, they are the exception. I think though we could agree, close the loopholes and hold insurance providers to the ethics standards absolutely.
    One thing I automatically disagree with. Eliminate HMOs and bring back indemnity policies to EVERYONE. These are by far the easiest policies to deal with, both as a provider and as a patient.

    And since I deal exclusively with group plans as a provider, I can tell you without hesitation that they ALL suck. I would LOVE to see some outside regulatory group, one made up of providers and consumers create a set of ethics and standards for the insurance industry, and then have the "bite" to enforce it.

    Ah, the departmental shuffle, this happens with many big financial companies, including creditors, insurers, banks, etc. Actually, pretty much every big corp. I will agree it's annoying, but will also say it is due to departmental incompetence and not necessarily misrepresentation. Trust me, if you don't have a direct line to a high ranking mid to upper manager your day will be ruined trying to put out a fire, been there, done that. One of the biggest problems with departmental incompetence is that everyone wants to show the person above them they can do the next level job when actually they can't even do their own correctly, the misinformation and misdirection is frustrating.........especially when you have a client ready to physically harm you for the company's mistake.
    I don't agree. It goes WAY beyond simple departmental incompetence. It's intentional. It happens far too often for it not to be. In actuality, this is like a gnat on the windshield. The worst is when I tell a reviewer that my client is suicidal and they want to deny authorization anyway because they don't see the reason for continued care. YES. I've heard that more than once. In some cases, I've gotten nasty with the reviewer (my favorite line is, "when you actually SEE this patient to make the determination, then I will give your opinion credence. Until then, I do not"... it doesn't make me friends with them, but sometimes it gets me what I need), I've had the subscriber call the insurance company, or the client has either had to pay out of pocket or discontinue treatment. This is the kind of abuse... simple abuse for the sake of greed that needs to stop.

    It could be a regional thing, Louisiana doctors that left at the time left because of state regs, but all of those things ballooned their mpi costs, and reimbursement from medicare, not specifically insurance companies here.
    Must be regional. Different here.



    I'm gonna watch the market when I get time tomorrow. I see one of two things happening. Either the market will spike tomorrow because something finally was decided and people will be speculating on the gains the health insurers will see because of the mandates or the market will go into full blown collapse mode. If the former happens we will see a huge bubble that will burst beyond anything we've seen in our lifetimes as more things are added or if the latter happens the market will blip along with minor spikes on occasion but will never fully recover, and in fact recede as things are added. Hate to be the pessimist here, but these are the only two economic possibilities I see with this bill.
    I agree with the slight bubble. I think the market will then right itself. I don't foresee any major economic changes at this juncture.

    I think we're in agreement but hanging on the general idea of regulation. I would probably be a libertarian if I could trust everyone, knowing some people would jeapordize their own mother to save a buck I can see the merit of having appropriate regulations. Where the end and beginning of such is I am more than happy to discuss.
    The example you just gave is precisely why I could NEVER be a libertarian. Human nature contradicts the libertarian position. As it does the socialist position.

    Ultimately, this is the problem with the idiots in Washington. They are extremists. You and I are not so alike, politically, though we find a lot of agreement in our perceptions of healthcare. Some fine tuning, for sure, but a lot of agreement. Unfortunately, it's the extremists that are both running the show and yelling the loudest.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #213
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    Re: Health Care Bill has passed

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I would agree with most of what you say here, though, I still say in some cases MORE hiring increases efficiency. And the factors that determine if one can continue to receive benefits would be somewhat more liberal from me than from you, I would imagine.
    I agree with more hiring in very specific instances, if a CBA(cost/benefit analysis) was to be done comprehensively and all factors included, I could be happy with a situational readjustment. On the recipient side, I might surprise you. Again, it's to get numbers to acceptable levels and make sure only people who demonstrably need permanent assistance stay permanent and that those who need temporary assistance are better off than when they started. I am not opposed to treating safety nets as investments, having tuition extensions for instance if someone wanted to go to an institution of higher learning, or otherwise was trying to improve themselves to become tax payers instead of tax consumers.




    One thing I automatically disagree with. Eliminate HMOs and bring back indemnity policies to EVERYONE. These are by far the easiest policies to deal with, both as a provider and as a patient.

    And since I deal exclusively with group plans as a provider, I can tell you without hesitation that they ALL suck. I would LOVE to see some outside regulatory group, one made up of providers and consumers create a set of ethics and standards for the insurance industry, and then have the "bite" to enforce it.
    Indemnity works about 30 years ago, they probably would be pretty good for a situation such as yours now that I think of it, but for hospitalization they are horrid, especially the one I worked for. There are bodies of professionals in the insurance industry that do a fantastic job, but unfortunately only in an advisory role, such as the Million Dollar Round Table, LIMRA, etc. They probably should have teeth though.



    I don't agree. It goes WAY beyond simple departmental incompetence. It's intentional. It happens far too often for it not to be. In actuality, this is like a gnat on the windshield. The worst is when I tell a reviewer that my client is suicidal and they want to deny authorization anyway because they don't see the reason for continued care. YES. I've heard that more than once. In some cases, I've gotten nasty with the reviewer (my favorite line is, "when you actually SEE this patient to make the determination, then I will give your opinion credence. Until then, I do not"... it doesn't make me friends with them, but sometimes it gets me what I need), I've had the subscriber call the insurance company, or the client has either had to pay out of pocket or discontinue treatment. This is the kind of abuse... simple abuse for the sake of greed that needs to stop.
    Ah, your example is definitely willfull. There was a company I used to use as an independent but no longer go through because they were just stupid, nice people, but stupid. Everyone wanted more authority and would waste time trying to use the limited amount they had for client problems, often they would do the exact opposite of what needed to be done and it would then take twice as long to un**** it, that wasn't willfull incompetence, they were just out of their league.









    I agree with the slight bubble. I think the market will then right itself. I don't foresee any major economic changes at this juncture.
    The problem I've noticed with market correction is it always hurts, I think this will be a super bubble and will hurt for longer. But time will tell.



    The example you just gave is precisely why I could NEVER be a libertarian. Human nature contradicts the libertarian position. As it does the socialist position.

    Ultimately, this is the problem with the idiots in Washington. They are extremists. You and I are not so alike, politically, though we find a lot of agreement in our perceptions of healthcare. Some fine tuning, for sure, but a lot of agreement. Unfortunately, it's the extremists that are both running the show and yelling the loudest.
    In full agreement here Cap.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Health Care Bill has passed

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I agree with more hiring in very specific instances, if a CBA(cost/benefit analysis) was to be done comprehensively and all factors included, I could be happy with a situational readjustment. On the recipient side, I might surprise you. Again, it's to get numbers to acceptable levels and make sure only people who demonstrably need permanent assistance stay permanent and that those who need temporary assistance are better off than when they started. I am not opposed to treating safety nets as investments, having tuition extensions for instance if someone wanted to go to an institution of higher learning, or otherwise was trying to improve themselves to become tax payers instead of tax consumers.
    I can agree with pretty much everything you say here... and the last bit about tuition extensions is something that I have often professed. Be careful... it's quite the progressive position.




    Indemnity works about 30 years ago, they probably would be pretty good for a situation such as yours now that I think of it, but for hospitalization they are horrid, especially the one I worked for. There are bodies of professionals in the insurance industry that do a fantastic job, but unfortunately only in an advisory role, such as the Million Dollar Round Table, LIMRA, etc. They probably should have teeth though.
    When I worked at a hospital (15 years ago), indemnity policies were the gold standard. Patients who had them never had to worry about treatment being cut or problems with payments. Indemnity policies, to me, are still the gold standard. Easy, great coverage, and no insurance company interaction. Why have they been phased out? Two reasons, but both are from the same animal: GREED. Insurance companies found that by using HMOs they could control things far better. They could cut coverage, cut authorizations, cut services, and make things all around more difficult for providers and subscribers in the hope that if things are difficult enough, people will just give up. However, providers are not blameless. Over billing, double billing, fraudulent billing, and keeping a patient for longer than necessary milked the insurance industry. Change needed to happen What I would like to see would be indemnity policies with provider reviews. The reviews, however, are based solely on the recommendations of the provider. Back in the day, there were no reviews at all. This is where the problems occurred. Now, the reviews are insurance company driven, not provider driven. If the provider can show medical need, then there should be no issue. Nowadays, this is not always the case.



    Ah, your example is definitely willfull. There was a company I used to use as an independent but no longer go through because they were just stupid, nice people, but stupid. Everyone wanted more authority and would waste time trying to use the limited amount they had for client problems, often they would do the exact opposite of what needed to be done and it would then take twice as long to un**** it, that wasn't willfull incompetence, they were just out of their league.
    Perhaps. I just think it's flat out greed and being after the bottomline, regardless of the service you provide.

    The problem I've noticed with market correction is it always hurts, I think this will be a super bubble and will hurt for longer. But time will tell.
    I don't think it will be super bubble. We'll have to wait and see.

    In full agreement here Cap.
    I figured. I should see if I can get Obama and Congress to log onto DP. If they did, they might actually find out how to REALLY solve some of this country's woes.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #215
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    Re: Health Care Bill has passed

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I can agree with pretty much everything you say here... and the last bit about tuition extensions is something that I have often professed. Be careful... it's quite the progressive position.
    I look at it this way, no one will have a consensus of people willing to eliminate safety nets, and even then, we cannot do it without massive economic damage and societal upheaval, so the only other option is to tame the beast in an intelligent way.



    When I worked at a hospital (15 years ago), indemnity policies were the gold standard. Patients who had them never had to worry about treatment being cut or problems with payments. Indemnity policies, to me, are still the gold standard. Easy, great coverage, and no insurance company interaction. Why have they been phased out? Two reasons, but both are from the same animal: GREED. Insurance companies found that by using HMOs they could control things far better. They could cut coverage, cut authorizations, cut services, and make things all around more difficult for providers and subscribers in the hope that if things are difficult enough, people will just give up. However, providers are not blameless. Over billing, double billing, fraudulent billing, and keeping a patient for longer than necessary milked the insurance industry. Change needed to happen What I would like to see would be indemnity policies with provider reviews. The reviews, however, are based solely on the recommendations of the provider. Back in the day, there were no reviews at all. This is where the problems occurred. Now, the reviews are insurance company driven, not provider driven. If the provider can show medical need, then there should be no issue. Nowadays, this is not always the case.
    I would like to see that as well, and adding a review board to indemnity would be a fantastic idea, but costs must be controlled and brought back to reasonable levels for that to work. Here's to hoping we can get some common sense back in all forms of healthcare in the future, I don't like this bill, but the horizon is unknown right now.




    Perhaps. I just think it's flat out greed and being after the bottomline, regardless of the service you provide.
    It's a perspective thing, we have differing experiences, so I'll leave it at that. Although I will concede that the greed point could be applied to those individuals I dealt with as well, no one should ever put a promotion or profit over satisfying a customer, it's bad business.



    I don't think it will be super bubble. We'll have to wait and see.
    It's really all we can do right now.



    I figured. I should see if I can get Obama and Congress to log onto DP. If they did, they might actually find out how to REALLY solve some of this country's woes.
    Good luck, although it appears they'd get flamed pretty badly at the moment.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Health Care Bill has passed

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I don't have a link yet. It just happened. Will provide a link as soon as one is available.

    The next bill to be voted on is the Reconciliation bill.

    EDIT: Link is here.

    The way I see it, Republicans should not have gone down the road of misrepresentations and attacks. IMHO, this is what killed their attempts to stop this bill, which I agree is bad. Also, IMHO, the Tea Partiers are an albatross around the neck of the GOP, and tonight's vote is proof of that.

    Will post the results of the Reconciliation vote in this thread, just as soon as they come in.
    I'm coming into this rather late so I don't even know if my voice will be heard in the heated debate.

    I am disappointed with the uneven-handedness of this bill. I expected more corporate regulation, more tort reform, more mention of preventative medicine and education, and more quality control of the vital factors of the typical American lifestyle. Instead I feel that more emphasis is being placed on the individual to be forced into getting insurance, as opposed to overhauling the health sector as a whole.

    Yes, hospital bills are high and people don't pay them, but that is just a symptom. The root is that unhealthy living is an epidemic in the U.S. I've lived there, I've seen it with my own eyes. To me, this bill will just allow a continuation of all the unhealthy factors in American society while doing nothing to address them. So yeah, it actually does play into corporate hands, because the "health care industry" largely does not want you to be healthy. They profit off of illness. This bill just ensures that they can profit even more.

    I am tired of conservatives saying that they shouldn't have to foot the bill for someone else or ranting about all the other trite inconveniences they'll suffer via taxation for this monstrosity. I don't care if you're someone living in an urban area or in the backwaters -- no person is an island. Every thing you do in life affects your human society. Humans are social creatures and our behaviors are all linked. So I think, even though there are downsides to this legislation, it's ultimately a good thing. All this talk about socialism is why your opponents have not be listening to you.

    My beef with liberals is that they are touting this as the savior of American health. Not so fast. Just because the bill is paid for now does not mean people are going to get all their problems fixed over night. First of all, aside from the fact that this bill does not address preventative medicine, Western medicine itself does very little in the prevention department. America needs a lifestyle overhaul and I don't see how it's going to happen. All of your talk about how UHC is the golden light for America and everyone has the right to be taken care of by the government is why your opponents have not been listening to you.

    To both extremes: the hysteria about how this bill is the downfall of America is just intrinsic to the low brow level of the debate which has in turn permitted your government to think you are too stupid to partake in the health care discussion. You wonder why your elected officials don't listen to you? It's because nothing you say is rational. And if they're not rational, well, they are just a symptom of the greater problem too.

    I hope this is a strong lesson to those who took part in the debate. The only thing that can stop your government from passing this kind of sweeping legislation is cold, calculated intelligence. Anything less and your voice is just white noise.

  7. #217
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    Re: Health Care Bill has passed

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm coming into this rather late so I don't even know if my voice will be heard in the heated debate.

    I am disappointed with the uneven-handedness of this bill. I expected more corporate regulation, more tort reform, more mention of preventative medicine and education, and more quality control of the vital factors of the typical American lifestyle. Instead I feel that more emphasis is being placed on the individual to be forced into getting insurance, as opposed to overhauling the health sector as a whole.

    Yes, hospital bills are high and people don't pay them, but that is just a symptom. The root is that unhealthy living is an epidemic in the U.S. I've lived there, I've seen it with my own eyes. To me, this bill will just allow a continuation of all the unhealthy factors in American society while doing nothing to address them. So yeah, it actually does play into corporate hands, because the "health care industry" largely does not want you to be healthy. They profit off of illness. This bill just ensures that they can profit even more.

    I am tired of conservatives saying that they shouldn't have to foot the bill for someone else or ranting about all the other trite inconveniences they'll suffer via taxation for this monstrosity. I don't care if you're someone living in an urban area or in the backwaters -- no person is an island. Every thing you do in life affects your human society. Humans are social creatures and our behaviors are all linked. So I think, even though there are downsides to this legislation, it's ultimately a good thing. All this talk about socialism is why your opponents have not be listening to you.

    My beef with liberals is that they are touting this as the savior of American health. Not so fast. Just because the bill is paid for now does not mean people are going to get all their problems fixed over night. First of all, aside from the fact that this bill does not address preventative medicine, Western medicine itself does very little in the prevention department. America needs a lifestyle overhaul and I don't see how it's going to happen. All of your talk about how UHC is the golden light for America and everyone has the right to be taken care of by the government is why your opponents have not been listening to you.

    To both extremes: the hysteria about how this bill is the downfall of America is just intrinsic to the low brow level of the debate which has in turn permitted your government to think you are too stupid to partake in the health care discussion. You wonder why your elected officials don't listen to you? It's because nothing you say is rational. And if they're not rational, well, they are just a symptom of the greater problem too.

    I hope this is a strong lesson to those who took part in the debate. The only thing that can stop your government from passing this kind of sweeping legislation is cold, calculated intelligence. Anything less and your voice is just white noise.
    Awesome post man.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Health Care Bill has passed

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I look at it this way, no one will have a consensus of people willing to eliminate safety nets, and even then, we cannot do it without massive economic damage and societal upheaval, so the only other option is to tame the beast in an intelligent way.
    I agree. Something incremental. I would hope that this will turn into something like that.


    I would like to see that as well, and adding a review board to indemnity would be a fantastic idea, but costs must be controlled and brought back to reasonable levels for that to work. Here's to hoping we can get some common sense back in all forms of healthcare in the future, I don't like this bill, but the horizon is unknown right now.
    I can agree with this, though I do have more hope for this bill. There are somethings in it that I am happy about (no pre-existing conditions. 26 year old age cap on parental coverage, for two).




    It's a perspective thing, we have differing experiences, so I'll leave it at that. Although I will concede that the greed point could be applied to those individuals I dealt with as well, no one should ever put a promotion or profit over satisfying a customer, it's bad business.
    Agreed.



    It's really all we can do right now.
    Agreed.



    Good luck, although it appears they'd get flamed pretty badly at the moment.
    I know. That'd be the beauty of it.
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    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #219
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    Re: Health Care Bill has passed

    The worst thing about the whole healthcare issue was the complete lack of content. Republicans went after the entire concept with demonizing hyperbole, and the democrats passed it through conniving political force. The bill could have been 100x better or 100x times worse, and still have no effect on the outcome. Most American's have no idea what the bill actually means, and yet that doesn't stop them from having a strong opinion on the subject.
    Have we truly become a nation of style over substance?

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    Re: Health Care Bill has passed

    **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ****

    I don't have anyone to express my frustration with that this piece of **** passed. Zero bipartisanship. Severe increase in regulation, Reduction in market competitiveness. Mandatory insurance. WTF does the reconciliation bill call for? ****!

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