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Health Care Bill has passed

TBone said:
Well said by you and the Captain. Yet, people want to protect this mess. Many GOP want to protect the corporations and insurance companies and special interest groups that continue to gouge us.

I have a case where my wife's cousin, who comes from a religously conservative family, who are dead-set against anything democratic, was diagnoised with mulitple myolomia (sic). He is a fire fighter, ex marine, with 3 you children. His insurance will not pay for a bone marrow trans?, and the hospital will not do it unless he comes up with 500K. Now we as a family have to come with the 500k to give this man a trans? He is a working member of society, who has served his country and his community, WHO HAS INSURANCE, yet, his health insurance provider can deny him coverage.

Something is wrong with this picture. Health care reform will hopefully stop and protect us, who work, contribute, etc.
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Why have health insurance and pay premiums if you're not covered for what you need?
Congress, especially the Republicans, get huge kickbacks, perks and additions to their campaign coffers by sleeping with the insurance and drug industries...hence, their opposition to anything which would alter their bread and butter. No wonder P.J. O'Rourke titled his tome about the U.S. Congress, "Parliament of Whores".
The "death panels" are made up of bought whore Republicans and industry insiders who are determined that Americans pay huge premiums and get minimal care...while profits are diverted to them.
 
aaronssongs said:
Why have health insurance and pay premiums if you're not covered for what you need?
Congress, especially the Republicans, get huge kickbacks, perks and additions to their campaign coffers by sleeping with the insurance and drug industries...hence, their opposition to anything which would alter their bread and butter. No wonder P.J. O'Rourke titled his tome about the U.S. Congress, "Parliament of Whores".
The "death panels" are made up of bought whore Republicans and industry insiders who are determined that Americans pay huge premiums and get minimal care...while profits are diverted to them.
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The sad thing is you don't seem to think Democrats do this - Barney Frank, Chris Dodd...
 
Toothpicvic said:
They don't seem to have to pay as much as we do to afford the same standards of living, so it works out pretty good from what I hear. Like in the 1950s US - taxes were higher, but your dollar went for a lot more.
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Why are you under the impression that they have the same standard of living? They are much poorer. They don't *have* to pay as much because they *cannot* pay as much.

In the 50s our standard of living was lower. Everyone didn't have flatscreens and broadband.
 
danarhea said:
I don't have a link yet. It just happened. Will provide a link as soon as one is available.

The next bill to be voted on is the Reconciliation bill.

EDIT: Link is here.

The way I see it, Republicans should not have gone down the road of misrepresentations and attacks. IMHO, this is what killed their attempts to stop this bill, which I agree is bad. Also, IMHO, the Tea Partiers are an albatross around the neck of the GOP, and tonight's vote is proof of that.

Will post the results of the Reconciliation vote in this thread, just as soon as they come in.
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i was finished posting about this bill, but i'm glad it passed. it may be flawed, but it's a step in the right direction, imo.

i completely agree with you about republicans, however. ;-)
 
I find it comical, but oh so typical, how libs can actually be gleeful today.

Uh, hey libbies, you just passed a bill that is going to have 80 percent of the states SUE you over. And 60 percent of the country's citizens hates this to the core.

LOL, congrats. People are so p'oed over this that you may well have witnessed the final nail in the coffin of your party. November is going to be bloody.
 
reefedjib said:
Why are you under the impression that they have the same standard of living? They are much poorer. They don't *have* to pay as much because they *cannot* pay as much.

In the 50s our standard of living was lower. Everyone didn't have flatscreens and broadband.
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They weren't invented yet.

Cars and TV sets were all the rage back then, and most Americans were acquiring them for themselves.
 
Erod said:
I find it comical, but oh so typical, how libs can actually be gleeful today.

Uh, hey libbies, you just passed a bill that is going to have 80 percent of the states SUE you over. And 60 percent of the country's citizens hates this to the core.

LOL, congrats. People are so p'oed over this that you may well have witnessed the final nail in the coffin of your party. November is going to be bloody.
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Wouldn't want to use accurate numbers since they are not overblown enough I take it. RealClearPolitics - Election Other - Obama and Democrats' Health Care Plan says you are wrong.
 
Erod said:
I find it comical, but oh so typical, how libs can actually be gleeful today.

Uh, hey libbies, you just passed a bill that is going to have 80 percent of the states SUE you over. And 60 percent of the country's citizens hates this to the core.

LOL, congrats. People are so p'oed over this that you may well have witnessed the final nail in the coffin of your party. November is going to be bloody.
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Sure, I'll pass for comical. I can't get the grin off of my face today no matter how much I try.:mrgreen:
 
Bassman said:
Wonderful, another bloated government program that will kill the private sector. Thanks for nothing!!!
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Such little faith for the private sector? Ha.... Truly intriguing. Government does not possess the ability to force what is left of our market system into despair.
 
Bassman said:
Wonderful, another bloated government program that will kill the private sector. Thanks for nothing!!!
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Kill the private sector? No, I think private insurance companies will be just fine with having more customers, even if they have to accept sick people now.

Hugh_Akston said:
This is socialism, plain and simple. Our government is destroying this country from the inside out. This will devastate our economy and put even more people out of work, not to mention what this will add to our outrageous and out of control deficit. Let's hope this gets shot down on Constitutional grounds and soon.
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You must have a pretty broad definition for socialism. Even universal government health insurance wouldn't be socialized medicine, strictly speaking, as the delivery would still be private. And this relatively moderate bill falls far short of that. Expanding medicaid and imposing individual mandates is a moderate approach. Not that I mean to imply that moderate is better.

Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm waiting for proponents to defend the contents of this bill.

Someone please tell me how this will make medical services cheaper, more accessible and not add to the federal deficit.
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Wider coverage, particularly the portion that expands Medicaid and improves primary care reimbursement, would/could make services cheaper by:

1. Increase preventive and primary care utilization, which can save money.

2. Decrease ER overutilization, as many uninsured poor use it in lieu of primary care, esp. given EMTALA. While necessary, the ER is a resource-intensive financial black hole, and this is exacerbated when it is used unnecessarily. Basically we end up paying for the uninsured anyway given how the ER drags the whole hospital into the red, spurning pressure to increase profits elsewhere and further raising costs in the process.

3. Encouraging people to buy insurance via penalties expands the risk pool of insurance companies. Young/healthy people who formerly would wait until they're old/sick to buy insurance would be subsidizing those who are already sick/old. In this scenario, insurance companies could reduce premiums while holding profits and benefits constant. Unfortunately, they tend to pass savings onto shareholders, not policyholders. But given the volatile environment, we'll see what they do. They've had enough bad press that cultivating the public's good will could prevent damaging reforms in the future.

More accessible is just obvious. They're expanding coverage via subsidies and mandates. The subsidies certainly increase government spending, but it is arguable whether that is offset by decreases in spending elsewhere, as aforementioned. Though to those who believe basic healthcare is a right, like basic education, cost isn’t the main issue.

On a side note, one thing conservatives can feel good about is it would probably also slightly reduce the abortion rate given easier access to contraceptives, as has been the experience in MA.

LaMidRighter said:
There is absolute proof that this thing will increase cost, the CBO scores have already predicted deficits with incomplete data, and by that I mean there were more proposals not released to them expected to further projections towards more cost. As well, CBO numbers are almost always off in a negative way. Hell, even the CBO conceded this will cost more money. All traceable to government overregulation, this bill increases overregulation.

Game/Set/Match/Thread
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Not really.

1. An increasing proportion of elderly citizens is contributing to a rise in healthcare costs in most developed nations.

2. New, expensive healthcare technologies are continuously being developed, and yet it is hard to put an upper limit on what one should spend to save a life.

3. Increasing litigation not only gives doctors ridiculous malpractice insurance premiums that they pass on to you, but it also causes them to practice defensive medicine, ordering excessive tests to cover their butts.

4. Administrative overhead in American healthcare is ~25%, while 5-10% is typical where there is "socialized medicine."

5. Lobbyists convince idiot/shill politicians to do things like prohibit Medicare from negotiating for drug prices in 2001.

And probably 10 or so more reasons, some unique to America and some not.

aaronssongs said:
Please, illustrate, link or document how the bill or the Dems are rewarding insurance companies, who, by and large were dead set against the bill, in any form. If the bill were so rewarding to insurance companies, why were they dead against it? I patiently await your response.
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Dead set against it? Maybe against the public option. Without the public option it’s a bonanza for them. They’ve been trying to steer the debate to maximize benefit to themselves, unsurprisingly. Remember how they whined about the penalties for not getting insurance not being harsh/high enough?

I think we need a system somewhat like France. Like basic education, basic healthcare is treated as a right. So the government funds a basic healthcare package with cost-saving measures (e.g. formulary and encouragement of cost-effective interventions) for everybody but people could buy supplemental for customization.
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danarhea said:
I don't have a link yet. It just happened. Will provide a link as soon as one is available.

The next bill to be voted on is the Reconciliation bill.

EDIT: Link is here.

The way I see it, Republicans should not have gone down the road of misrepresentations and attacks. IMHO, this is what killed their attempts to stop this bill, which I agree is bad. Also, IMHO, the Tea Partiers are an albatross around the neck of the GOP, and tonight's vote is proof of that.

Will post the results of the Reconciliation vote in this thread, just as soon as they come in.
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How so? :confused:
 
reefedjib said:
You do realize the tax rates they pay in Europe and the corresponding lackluster performance on their private sectors, don't you? Where we were falling by 2.5% GDP a year in the recession, they were falling by 8%.
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Who? Care to provide a source? I would agree that the less developed as well as the nations who have a large GDP:GNP discrepancy to be more effected. Most of the EU is far more fiscally solid than most western countries.
 
Goldenboy219 said:
Such little faith for the private sector? Ha.... Truly intriguing. Government does not possess the ability to force what is left of our market system into despair.
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Sure it does. Government does not have to show a profit, or even so much as a balance in their account. LOL. Private companies do. This is the first step to eliminate private insurance.

Conservatives need merely to campaign to repeal all aspects of this bill EXCEPT FOR THE PARTS THEY WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR, and this ugly mistake will be gone in due time.

If they don't, we will be Greece before you know what happened.
 
reefedjib said:
The sad thing is you don't seem to think Democrats do this - Barney Frank, Chris Dodd...
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Didn't say that. In fact, never said that. Again, speculation on your part.
You don't know me. Stop pretending that you do.
P.J O'Rourke didn't distinguish between parties when he titled his tome about Congress, "Parliament of Whores".
 
TBone said:
With all due respect, and to each his own, I have to disagree with your comments. There is no solid proof that a majority of American's were against this bill. Just because you yell the loudest, doesn't mean you yell for the majority. There is no proof it will put a nail in the coffin of the USA. Again no proof it will devastate our economy and place persons out of work. And, it is not un-Constitutional.
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"The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone poll, taken Friday and Saturday nights, shows that 41% of likely voters favor the health care plan. Fifty-four percent (54%) are opposed. These figures have barely budged in recent months"


Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports
 
Hatuey said:
It is so cute to see so many supporters of the Teabag Party say they are going to revolt. I picture them getting their tights and muskets on their 300 pound bodies now. Please don't die from your obesity? The bill isn't fully in effect yet, wait until it is passed. THEN! You can all walk to your local courthouse and see how many people give a **** about what you have to say. Better yet, have a rally.
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uhm, "so many"?


I see one maybe two. Are you sure they are tea party members?
 
Erod said:
Sure it does. Government does not have to show a profit, or even so much as a balance in their account.
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So what? You reply instantly with a straw man? Government has no answer in the realm of competition when it comes to the quality and productivity of the private sector.

LOL. Private companies do. This is the first step to eliminate private insurance.
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I find it humorous as well that your sheep in wolves clothing "pro markets" rhetoric is reinforced with inconsistency. Are you aware that there are extremely large customer bases for private insurance in France, Germany, Italy, etc... In fact, the majority of citizens in France carry various forms of private coverage.

Conservatives need merely to campaign to repeal all aspects of this bill EXCEPT FOR THE PARTS THEY WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR, and this ugly mistake will be gone in due time.

If they don't, we will be Greece before you know what happened.
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:rofl

Right!:roll:
 
"Dependent children under the age of 26 would be allowed to remain on their parents' policies if they cannot get health insurance elsewhere. Adults with pre-existing conditions would also be able to buy coverage through expanded high-risk pools.


Beginning in 2014, more far-reaching measures will begin to take effect. States would be required to set up new "exchanges," or insurance marketplaces, that would offer a variety of health care plans for small businesses and individuals who do not get coverage from their employers. Government subsidies would be available to those earning up to 400% of poverty. Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage would be fined, and for the first time, most people would be required to obtain health coverage - either at work or by purchasing it on their own - or pay a penalty.


All of this would be paid for in two ways: By reducing spending on Medicare by hundreds of billions, and by imposing a set of new taxes, including a 40% levy on certain high-priced insurance policies." Cited from site:Obama's Health Care Reform Bill Passed - Yahoo! News.



This above is in itself a historic achievement to have health care available to many who cannot currently afford it. To have small businesses be fined for being cheap in providing basic coverage is a good thing. For helping small businesses provide coverage if they cannot afford it is a good thing. To help those 'middle-line' Americans who are not eligible for Medicaid, yet are struggling whether out of work or working at a job that doesn't much financial flexibility when it comes to putting aside monies per month for quality health insurance, is a really good thing.


Look, there was and still are many reasons why health insurance isn’t affordable to so many in this country. Every day folk will swear they know why and use racial epithets thrown at African-American members of the House to prove their displeasure, however I often asked myself if John McClain was president, would he be subjected to racism and un-Americanism if he was trying to do the same thing for health care…. If not this nation has a huge problem every time President Obama tries to provide a change.


It’s inhumane to use racial epithets to anyone in America and un-American as well, to use this tool of hate against members of congress. It’s a shame this great country couldn't come together for a noble and just cause such as providing health care to those many Americans who cannot afford it. (Isn’t this the fundamental reason why reform was needed in health care? To provide health care to Americans that needs it?)

This country still shows how many problems we have against one another which it seems are getting worst. President Obama election should have been a sign where all Americans can rejoice over someone who wanted to provide change we need. No one said it would be easy; no one said everyone in congress would play nice and allow such a change to occur; at least we have a president who is willing to try despite.


I understand the concept of spending monies to benefit this great country down the road. I do not understand how we do not and still have reform in many key areas of government and society. We wouldn't have positive reform if we cannot provide help to those who are struggling now.


We are seeing how dysfunctional many entities of government function and how much in congress and in the public want this president to fail like never before. No one is saying President Obama is the a great president so far; however having Americans dislike the man and then dislike his politics without understanding the man and his politics, is very dangerous for America.


Thank you to all that dislike the man and his politics without understanding the man and his politics.
 
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Mystery21 said:
This country is slowly decreasing in power and economy wise, you might not be able to reconize it now but after Obama's term it will take alot to reconstruct it back to what it was.
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Not nearly as much as it is costing to reconstruct Iraq. Just sayin.
 
Mystery21 said:
This country is slowly decreasing in power and economy wise, you might not be able to reconize it now but after Obama's term it will take alot to reconstruct it back to what it was.
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Economic convergence is a reality we will be sure to face in the long run (this is a fact). However, the US economy will be booming once again as the new "it" innovation hits the waves allowing for greater standard of living as well as increased gains in productivity.

Biotech, nanotech, and advanced robotics will begin to drive the economy in this decade. This provides an even greater benefit in regards to health care.

da Vinci Surgery - Minimally Invasive Robotic Surgery with the da Vinci Surgical System
 
LiveUninhibited said:
I wonder what proportion of them actually understand the bill.
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I would say MOST that oppose the Bill understand completely as well they have a basic grasp of the Constitution...

Those that favored it... NEITHER!:doh
 
Lerxst said:
Not nearly as much as it is costing to reconstruct Iraq. Just sayin.
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Reconstructing Iraq is costing half what the new healthcare bill will cost us as a new entitlement. Just sayin.
 
reefedjib said:
You should make it a rule.
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I seriously move around too much. But it looks like I'll be in this area for a couple of years, so it shouldn't be an issue for the next couple of elections.

reefedjib said:
I am equally guilty of not voting. Those social conservatives just stick in my craw. I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Who the hell am I supposed to vote for? If we vote in Republicans to a majority for fiscal conservative reasons, you know they are going to pass some socially conservative bull****.
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I agree with you about the social conservatives. I really do. They disgust me. However, the things they would like try to shove through could be more easily repealed and far less expensive than what the libtards just did to the country. What they just did will take years to fix.
 
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