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Thread: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    How in the world did we consent? As far as I can tell, the only people who consent are those who immigrate from another country and acquire citizenship. The rest of us were simply born here.
    Constitution 101. It's the job of the federal government to build us a bad-ass military.

    I suggest you argue it with James Madison in the afterlife, because this is basic stuff not worthy of discussion here. Hate the military on your own time.

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Constitution 101. It's the job of the federal government to build us a bad-ass military.

    I suggest you argue it with James Madison in the afterlife, because this is basic stuff not worthy of discussion here. Hate the military on your own time.
    I don't care what any of the founding fathers said. The simple fact is that I have sworn no oath, signed no document, etc of my own free will (The pledge of allegiance doesn't count since I was a minor and compliance was forced pretty harshly by the school system). The only people that have are immigrants, the military (thanks for reminding me Erod), people who take an oath of office, etc.

    I follow the laws because the police will put me in jail if I don't, but I never agreed to anything.

    What does this have to do with hating the military, I was not responding to that part of Ethereal's post (which it also illogical, but not worth pointing out)? Personally, I think having a military is a good thing for any nation to have.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-19-10 at 11:43 AM.

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I don't care what any of the founding fathers said. The simple fact is that I have sworn no oath, signed no document, etc of my own free will (The pledge of allegiance doesn't count since I was a minor and it was enforced by the school system). The only people that have are immigrants, the military (thanks for reminding me Erod), Judges, Presidents, etc.
    Actually, unless you renounce your citizenship and repatriate, or get deported and expatriated then it is assumed you accept the social contract for the way it was written. The policies that our beloved idiots in congress have stuck us with over the last 100 years or so are not exactly part of the deal, however the founding fathers laid out the initial contract, those who would either change it by fiat(including overreaching policy) or by flat out sidestepping the promise(constitution) are in fact breaking the contract and thus.......not honoring their part of the deal they accepted simply by remaining in the society of their birth.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I don't care what any of the founding fathers said. The simple fact is that I have sworn no oath, signed no document, etc of my own free will (The pledge of allegiance doesn't count since I was a minor and compliance was forced pretty harshly by the school system). The only people that have are immigrants, the military (thanks for reminding me Erod), people who take an oath of office, etc.

    I follow the laws because the police will put me in jail if I don't, but I never agreed to anything.

    What does this have to do with hating the military, I was not responding to that part of Ethereal's post (which it also illogical, but not worth pointing out)? Personally, I think having a military is a good thing for any nation to have.
    OK, my apologies for the last part.

    The constititution is what it is. It is designed to protect your freedoms and liberties, and otherwise, get the government the hell out of your way.

    It is genius, and it should not be changed to satisfy 300 million different people in 300 million different ways.

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Actually, unless you renounce your citizenship and repatriate, or get deported and expatriated then it is assumed you accept the social contract for the way it was written. The policies that our beloved idiots in congress have stuck us with over the last 100 years or so are not exactly part of the deal, however the founding fathers laid out the initial contract, those who would either change it by fiat(including overreaching policy) or by flat out sidestepping the promise(constitution) are in fact breaking the contract and thus.......not honoring their part of the deal they accepted simply by remaining in the society of their birth.
    I accept the parts I like and I don't accept the parts I wish to change and to be honestly, I suspect most people feel that way (I couldn't find any polling on it though, so I don't know for sure). However, as a caveat, any parts I do wish to change, I wish to change in a lawful manner as proscribed by our legal system.

    The problem with emigrating though is that often people do not have the means to do it and another country may not accept them. This would make them stuck and without a home. Facing this possibility, many do not do anything to change their lives because there is some risk. I don't fault the people who do this for those reasons. (Not that I want to leave, but I am trying to be realistic and not ideological about it).

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I accept the parts I like and I don't accept the parts I wish to change and to be honestly, I suspect most people feel that way (I couldn't find any polling on it though, so I don't know for sure). However, as a caveat, any parts I do wish to change, I wish to change in a lawful manner as proscribed by our legal system.
    Well, when you can get the congress to pass an amendment that does not violate the constitution, 2/3 of the states to agree, and a president who will sign it then we'll agree. Till then you've got some lobbying to do.

    The problem with emigrating though is that often people do not have the means to do it and another country may not accept them.
    I don't want to hear it, people leave this country constantly, if you do not wish to leave for whatever reasons you accept our social contract.
    This would make them stuck and without a home.
    Canada is just next door.
    Facing this possibility, many do not do anything to change their lives because there is some risk. I don't fault the people who do this for those reasons. (Not that I want to leave, but I am trying to be realistic and not ideological about it).
    You are being too idealogical, you are saying you want us to change to your opinion. I don't agree, you accept things as they were laid out, or you figure out a way to change societal thinking, but changing things through policy or court fiat is not acceptable.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    OK, my apologies for the last part.

    The constititution is what it is. It is designed to protect your freedoms and liberties, and otherwise, get the government the hell out of your way.

    It is genius, and it should not be changed to satisfy 300 million different people in 300 million different ways.
    I agree that it is what it is and its mostly a good document. I also agree that it is the result of some serious intellectual work, but I think it was simply the result of the philosophy that was popular at the time and a reaction to English Monarchy. I also agree that it can never be everything to everyone.

    However, I see nothing wrong with people trying to push their views onto the greater society as long as everyone does it. The reason is that the net effect will be a compromise that almost everyone can at least live with. You are right that the constitution is hard to amend. Which I am also ok with since the constitution is the core of the legal system and any change made to it can have wide ranging effects. So it should be difficult to change (even though I think the FF's made it too difficult)
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-19-10 at 12:07 PM.

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Well, when you can get the congress to pass an amendment that does not violate the constitution, 2/3 of the states to agree, and a president who will sign it then we'll agree. Till then you've got some lobbying to do.
    You are absolutely correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I don't want to hear it, people leave this country constantly, if you do not wish to leave for whatever reasons you accept our social contract. Canada is just next door.
    Ultimately it doesn't matter what another thinks. This is a decision everyone must make on their own out of necessity and their personal means.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    You are being too idealogical, you are saying you want us to change to your opinion. I don't agree, you accept things as they were laid out, or you figure out a way to change societal thinking, but changing things through policy or court fiat is not acceptable.
    I disagree. Everyone wants their view of what is correct for society to be applied to society. Even those who want strict interpretation of the constitution want to remake society according to their views of what is the correct application of law. That is simply human nature and unavoidable.

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Sure, you say that now.

    But when the socialized mail delivers your copy of Men's Health and your socialized veteran's benefits check......

    And when the socialized police patrol your city.........or the socialized paramedics save your life...........

    And when you drive on the socialized roads...........to your socialized public school......or the socialized rest stop near the socialize state park.......where you meet friends for social interaction around the the camp fire.......

    .......and should your fire get out of control..... guess what? Those socialized firefighters will show up......
    and how are our public schools and postal service doing these days?

    Not to mention you cannot claim socialism with specific services provided by a republic.
    Last edited by texmaster; 03-19-10 at 12:30 PM.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    and how are our public schools and postal service doing these days?

    Not to mention you cannot claim socialism with specific services provided by a republic.
    Health care would be a specific service.

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