Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 99

Thread: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

  1. #51
    Equal Opportunity Hater
    obvious Child's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
    Last Seen
    12-09-14 @ 11:36 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    19,883

    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Like I said, "socialized" is not the same thing as "socialist".
    Perhaps not, but Mr. V has an extremely inaccurate understanding of what socialism is. In terms of how an operation is run, the VA, military, roads, police etc are socialist as the government owns the means of production. Calling Obamacare which isn't technically socialist, socialist at the same time defending operations which are by very operation, socialist is pretty ignorant.

    And it's incredibly difficult to know what the hell Navy is actually talking about.

    And frankly, medicine is already placed under government control. Between Medicare and Medicaid, there's not that much left for the private sector. And Obamacare does not take control away from private insurers in that market.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  2. #52
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    42,035

    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I know what socialism is.
    Obviously not considering you're arguing that if it is in the constitution, it is not socialist.

    After the state seizes the means of production it redistributes the wealth amongst the people until such a time when class distinctions have dissolved, at which point, the means of production are reduced to the collective who operate them via workers councils and direct democracy.
    In the context of the military various equivalent facets of socialism can be seen, from a central planning authority to controlled means of production. The redistribution of wealth IMO comes in the form of the government taxing to fund the military. But then again, none of those things you noted constitute central pillars of socialism as it is practiced. I think the fact that the military is not a direct democracy just reinforces how socialist it is. Very few "socialist" countries are democracies. Can't think of any actually.

    I'm just using the classical definition of socialism as espoused by Marx and Engels.
    You should read Lenin. He goes deeper into what is 'socialism' than Marx and Engels. Then again I think he was smarter than both of those guys put together. Marx and Engels laid the blueprint for socialism. Lenin was really the guy who expanded on it.

    Socialism necessarily involves the state-seizure of private property. The state cannot seize something when it is prescribed by the Constitution.
    This is not entirely true. Whether the constitution prescribes something or not, does not determine whether a given institution socialist. The U.S. seizes tax money to fund the military. Would you consider money to be private property?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  3. #53
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Perhaps not, but Mr. V has an extremely inaccurate understanding of what socialism is. In terms of how an operation is run, the VA, military, roads, police etc are socialist as the government owns the means of production.
    Except that is an incomplete definition of socialism. Socialism is the state seizure of the means of production. It has nothing to do with drafting a Constitution and enumerating government powers, such as the military.

    Calling Obamacare which isn't technically socialist, socialist at the same time defending operations which are by very operation, socialist is pretty ignorant.
    One could argue that Obamacare is the forced redistribution of wealth, which is an element of Marxist-socialism.

    And it's incredibly difficult to know what the hell Navy is actually talking about.

    And frankly, medicine is already placed under government control. Between Medicare and Medicaid, there's not that much left for the private sector. And Obamacare does not take control away from private insurers in that market.
    Medicine is not under government control, but it certainly isn't free either. We should move in the free direction...

  4. #54
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    42,035

    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Having a military is no more "socialism" than is having a governing body.

    Aspects of governments such as a military for protection is as much a capitalist idea as socialist as communist. It is simply a necessary part of any society that becomes large enough to need protection from enemy's foreign or even domestic.

    Besides all forms of Democracy involve some form of socialism.
    Well I guess some forms of socialism are evil and immoral. Some are not.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  5. #55
    Equal Opportunity Hater
    obvious Child's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
    Last Seen
    12-09-14 @ 11:36 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    19,883

    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Except that is an incomplete definition of socialism. Socialism is the state seizure of the means of production.
    Which is done by grabbing land and taxing people, both of which constitute property, land and money. You don't pay your property tax enough and the state will seize it and sell it at auction and use the tax to fund schools and cops which it dictates the policies to.

    It has nothing to do with drafting a Constitution and enumerating government powers, such as the military.
    The fact that the COTUS says it's okay is irrelevant. Taking land to build roads and schools is seizure. Along with taxation. As Wiseone said, all functioning countries need some level of socialism to function. I don't disagree with him. Look at the countries who don't have it: Somalia.

    One could argue that Obamacare is the forced redistribution of wealth, which is an element of Marxist-socialism.
    In the same fashion one could argue the military is the forced redistribution of wealth, which is an element of Marxist-socialism. The government takes my money to give to a big corporation to buy weapons which it dictates to the corporation and sometimes builds itself.

    Medicine is not under government control, but it certainly isn't free either. We should move in the free direction...
    A significant portion of it already is.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  6. #56
    Equal Opportunity Hater
    obvious Child's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
    Last Seen
    12-09-14 @ 11:36 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    19,883

    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Well I guess some forms of socialism are evil and immoral. Some are not.
    Socialism according to some here: Whatever I don't like.

    Liberal: Anyone who disagrees with me on anything.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  7. #57
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Obviously not considering you're arguing that if it is in the constitution, it is not socialist.
    If something is lawfully within the government's purview, how can it be the forced redistribution of wealth?

    In the context of the military various equivalent facets of socialism can be seen, from a central planning authority to controlled means of production. The redistribution of wealth IMO comes in the form of the government taxing to fund the military. But then again, none of those things you noted constitute central pillars of socialism as it is practiced. I think the fact that the military is not a direct democracy just reinforces how socialist it is. Very few "socialist" countries are democracies. Can't think of any actually.
    It has some facets of socialism, yes, but it lacks the coercive underpinnings of socialist theory.

    You should read Lenin. He goes deeper into what is 'socialism' than Marx and Engels. Then again I think he was smarter than both of those guys put together. Marx and Engels laid the blueprint for socialism. Lenin was really the guy who expanded on it.
    Okay, I'll certainly give him a look but I don't think he eschews the basics of socialism; that is, the state seizure of the means of production and bourgeois property.

    This is not entirely true. Whether the constitution prescribes something or not, does not determine whether a given institution socialist. The U.S. seizes tax money to fund the military. Would you consider money to be private property?
    The Constitution removes the coercive element from government and taxation, which is a necessary element of socialism.

  8. #58
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Which is done by grabbing land and taxing people, both of which constitute property, land and money. You don't pay your property tax enough and the state will seize it and sell it at auction and use the tax to fund schools and cops which it dictates the policies to.

    The fact that the COTUS says it's okay is irrelevant. Taking land to build roads and schools is seizure. Along with taxation. As Wiseone said, all functioning countries need some level of socialism to function. I don't disagree with him. Look at the countries who don't have it: Somalia.
    American citizens consent to be governed by the Constitution. How can the state seize something when the people have already consented to it?

    In the same fashion one could argue the military is the forced redistribution of wealth, which is an element of Marxist-socialism. The government takes my money to give to a big corporation to buy weapons which it dictates to the corporation and sometimes builds itself.
    But it's not the forced redistribution of wealth, which is the more precise descriptor of Marxist-socialism.

  9. #59
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    42,035

    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    If something is lawfully within the government's purview, how can it be the forced redistribution of wealth?
    What happens if you refuse to pay taxes?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  10. #60
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    What happens if you refuse to pay taxes?
    Of course, the government will come get you, but, in a Constitutional Republic, you would have no legal or moral standing. This nation was created by the US Constitution, and Americans citizens enter into a social contract which requires obedience to said Constitution. Surely you can see the difference between something which is Constitutional and something which is not?

Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •