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Thread: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Socialism is a form of forced wealth redistribution.
    No. It is not. Socialism is a system under which the government controls the means of production. That is the most basic pillar of it. Everything else is added on. The proof is in governments which have had wealth redistribution programs without being socialist and remaining clearly right wing.

    ex. Peronism in Argentina.

    Since Americans consent to be governed by the Constitution, there is nothing socialist about the military, as it prescribed by law.
    So since the masses consent to having an organization where the means of production are controlled by the state, it is not socialism? Next you'll be telling us that the caudillos were left wing and Liberalism in its most basic form has nothing in common with what is considered American Conservatism.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    "Socialized" is not the same thing as "socialist". Socialism is a specific economic philosophy that involves forced redistribution of wealth by the state. Most of the things you listed are Constitutional, hence they are not "socialist".
    Don't you think that explanation of the obvious, necessary as it is for such an intellectuality honest poster as hazelnut, needs some kind of further definition?

    Derka Derka!

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    "Socialized" is not the same thing as "socialist". Socialism is a specific economic philosophy that involves forced redistribution of wealth by the state. Most of the things you listed are Constitutional, hence they are not "socialist".
    Try to follow the thread before you open your mouth and comment.

    We all know what Vicchio and other hyper-partisans mean when they call Obama a Socialist. They're talking about what they see as socialized medicine.

    But you knew that.... so your point is a rather stupid and silly parsing of words.

    so·cial·ize (ssh-lz)
    v. so·cial·ized, so·cial·iz·ing, so·cial·iz·es
    v.tr.
    1. To place under government or group ownership or control.
    2. To make fit for companionship with others; make sociable.
    3. To convert or adapt to the needs of society.

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    No. It is not. Socialism is a system under which the government controls the means of production.
    I know what socialism is. After the state seizes the means of production it redistributes the wealth amongst the people until such a time when class distinctions have dissolved, at which point, the means of production are reduced to the collective who operate them via workers councils and direct democracy.

    That is the most basic pillar of it. Everything else is added on. The proof is in governments which have had wealth redistribution programs without being socialist and remaining clearly right wing.

    ex. Peronism in Argentina.
    I'm just using the classical definition of socialism as espoused by Marx and Engels.

    So since the masses consent to having an organization where the means of production are controlled by the state, it is not socialism?
    Socialism necessarily involves the state-seizure of private property. The state cannot seize something when it is prescribed by the Constitution.

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Try to follow the thread before you open your mouth and comment.

    We all know what Vicchio and other hyper-partisans mean when they call Obama a Socialist. They're talking about what they see as socialized medicine.

    But you knew that.... so your point is a rather stupid and silly parsing of words.

    so·cial·ize (ssh-lz)
    v. so·cial·ized, so·cial·iz·ing, so·cial·iz·es
    v.tr.
    1. To place under government or group ownership or control.
    2. To make fit for companionship with others; make sociable.
    3. To convert or adapt to the needs of society.
    Exactly, and all nations have some form of gov't owned or gov't controlled body working somewhere in society, and we are all in favor of it.

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Socialism is inheriently immoral and evil.
    Like the VA. And roads. And police. And the Military.

    Oh wait....
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Try to follow the thread before you open your mouth and comment.

    We all know what Vicchio and other hyper-partisans mean when they call Obama a Socialist. They're talking about what they see as socialized medicine.
    I think what he actually means is that it's the forced redistribution of wealth, which is an element of Marxist-socialism.

    But you knew that.... so your point is a rather stupid and silly parsing of words.

    so·cial·ize (ssh-lz)
    v. so·cial·ized, so·cial·iz·ing, so·cial·iz·es
    v.tr.
    1. To place under government or group ownership or control.
    2. To make fit for companionship with others; make sociable.
    3. To convert or adapt to the needs of society.
    I'm not sure what your point is. Mr. V was obviously referring to socialism, not socialized programs. There is a difference.

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Like the VA. And roads. And police. And the Military.

    Oh wait....
    Like I said, "socialized" is not the same thing as "socialist".

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    So Hazlnut, what exactly does the Military "PRODUCE"? What do POLICE "Produce"? What does the Post Office "PRODUCE"?

    I'll give you a hint, not a damn thing.
    Irrelevant. Socialism is not inherently confined to actual tangible products. By your measure, all services are not socialist despite any government ownership and dictating the means of how services are provided.

    The military is by definition socialistic as the government owns the means of production and the product is defense. Just because it's not tangible does not deem it not socialist. Medicine is largely a service industry. By your own measure of tangible products, Obama's plan cannot be socialist because it's not producing tangible products, but services instead.

    The Military is a Cosntitutionally mandated requirement to keep the Country safe.
    Which is completely irrelevant as to whether it is socialist or not. The Constitution could mandate that the government control the production of doughnuts. Just because COTUS says so doesn't mean squat as to whether it is socialist or not. The problem is your fundamental lack of any understanding of the term.

    The Post Office serves the country in ensuring mail gets around, a novel idea for it's time, but the advent of Email, and companies like Fed EX and UPS show how little the Post Office is really in demand anymore.. that might explain why it's going bankrupt.
    FAIL. If you bothered to open up the USPS's 10k, you would notice that its pension is what's killing it. In terms of actual operations, the USPS is making sizable chunks of money. In the business of providing mail service, it does well. In the business of providing a pension it sucks. This has been pointed out several times and you seem insistent upon ignoring it thus suggesting you have no interest in the actual facts.

    And police... are a state function to maintain law and order... they don't PRODUCE anything.
    By that measure, a government airline is not socialist because it doesn't produce anything.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Idaho first to sign law aimed at health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    So since the masses consent to having an organization where the means of production are controlled by the state, it is not socialism? Next you'll be telling us that the caudillos were left wing and Liberalism in its most basic form has nothing in common with what is considered American Conservatism.
    Having a military is no more "socialism" than is having a governing body.

    Aspects of governments such as a military for protection is as much a capitalist idea as socialist as communist. It is simply a necessary part of any society that becomes large enough to need protection from enemy's foreign or even domestic.

    Besides all forms of Democracy involve some form of socialism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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